tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post3250821082597570398..comments2024-02-20T15:17:48.594+11:00Comments on A.E.Brain: Travel IssuesZoe Brainhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13712045376060102538noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-41263038026743324832010-08-16T23:50:50.132+10:002010-08-16T23:50:50.132+10:00Zoe,
From my prior experiences in travelling to t...Zoe,<br /><br />From my prior experiences in travelling to the States (>30 yr, now), and even in light of recent increases in the level of information required, I doubt that you will have significant problems.<br /><br />Which, of course, is not the same as ruling trouble out altogether, but it may be fairly said that CBP/TSA/DHS and all the other TLA pooper-troopers have much more alluring targets than you. Or me, for that matter.<br /><br />Elane Imgoven<br />happily heteronymous for the very best of workplace reasons. ^_^Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09819982522473461310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-72718969452556301712010-08-16T16:15:54.514+10:002010-08-16T16:15:54.514+10:00"But the problem is that we can't have tw...<i>"But the problem is that we can't have two people who have only testicles get married to each other."</i><br /><br />Why not? Especially if one can give birth to her husband's child, using a donated egg.<br /><br />I'm glad you said <b>only</b> testes though. <br /><br />To see the inhumanity that your ideology would lead to in practice, please have a look at <a href="http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2010/06/girl-speaks-out-and-is-listened-to.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>.<br /><br /><i>"As for transsexuals there is another problem since what they call a vagina is just a degloved penis basically that is turned inside out."</i><br /><br />Er no. Penile Inversion is not the only way of performing genital reconstruction surgery (GRS). For one thing, it requires the presence of a relatively normal penis - something that many who have GRS have never had.<br /><br />For another thing, there are cytological changes after reconstruction, so after a year, even at the cellular level, the tissue is indistinguishable from standard factory model vaginal. That's regardless of the original donor cell type.<br /><br />As for my respect for Dr Satinover - I also have even more respect for Sir Isaac Newton. His work on Physics and Mathematics is genius.<br /><br />His work on Alchemy, trying to turn lead into gold - not so much. As a Theologian, he's at best 3rd rate too.<br /><br />Dr Satinover is an extremely brilliant man. That doesn't mean to say that all of his notions are, well, consistent with the evidence.<br /><br />And just because NARTH has a bunch of crackpots and dangerous nutters on its scientific advisory team doesn't mean to say that absolutely everything they publish is complete rubbish. But I suggest you contact Christian Psychologist Warren Throckmorton on that. While he and I disagree on the interpretation of some evidence, I know of no man with a higher degree of personal and intellectual integrity.Zoe Brainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13712045376060102538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-34260685885266240322010-08-16T15:48:54.096+10:002010-08-16T15:48:54.096+10:00Hello Brain, I am surprised you like Satinover sin...Hello Brain, I am surprised you like Satinover since he has written Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth and is pro reparatist. There is an article on the NARTH site in the gender identity disorder section about determining sex using objective criteria.anonymous andynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-7057808175059252632010-08-16T15:39:44.526+10:002010-08-16T15:39:44.526+10:00Llyod the CAIS person in the article Brain linked ...Llyod the CAIS person in the article Brain linked to wouldn't mind living as a man. Most of course would. But the problem is that we can't have two people who have only testicles get married to each other. I even heard it stated that by dressing as a woman they are crossdressing. As for transsexuals there is another problem since what they call a vagina is just a degloved penis basically that is turned inside<br />out.anonymous andynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-70292644874983442292010-08-16T12:14:51.891+10:002010-08-16T12:14:51.891+10:00Andy,
In Biology you have populations with huge v...Andy,<br /><br />In Biology you have populations with huge variability and with constantly changing compositions. You cannot for example make a definition of a species by defining its essential characteristics. What you do is look and see if the organisms fall into clusters and see how isolated the clusters are from each other. Biological classifications are frequently revised, fusing of splitting species.<br /><br />I have a Bachelor of Science in Biology and a Master of Statistics. I have frequently worked on clustering biological data. And the clusters and classes that I work with are always messy. There are always outliers and usually points that cannot be fitted well int whatever classification or clustering you are creating. <br /><br />You do violence to reality when you try to force everyone into two clearly defined sexes. Most fit well but there are always exceptions.<br /><br />The classification that we need for social purposes is not necessarily the same as what we would use for biological explanations. In particular we should place a high importance on neurological characteristics. I am thinking of thins such as the brain's body map and the associated sense of sexual identity and on the different drives and ways that information is handled in the to sexes.<br /><br />Most people see their sexual identity as a fundamental part of who they are. They would find the idea of changing this appalling. Transsexuals are trying to make their body match the unalterable neurological sense of identity better. Women with CAIS would rightly find the idea of being turned into a man just wrong on the most fundamental level. What they would like is fertility as a woman. They should not be pushed into doing violence to their nature to satisfy other peoples desire to put everyone into neat categories.Lloyd Flackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832519369660328832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-36207108530792978292010-08-16T10:58:28.550+10:002010-08-16T10:58:28.550+10:00Hi Andy
The problem of fitting everyone into a st...Hi Andy<br /><br />The problem of fitting everyone into a strict binary-sex system are the same as the ones faced by the old Race Classification Board in Zuid Afrika. There, there was a theological basis for dividing Hamitic from partly Hamitic people, and those from the rest. And they tried to make biology co-operate in that. It didn't work out too well...<br /><br />Between the years of 1950 and 1966 there were 267,541 individuals who could not be adequately categorized by the apartheid system of racial categorization. And they tried harder than any group, before or since, to coerce a messy, complicated reality into conforming with their ideologically and theologically based ideas on race. Just as many today try to do the same for their ideologically and theologically based ideas on sex.<br /><br />You might want to look at <a href="http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/07/hsu-ethics-presentation.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a> on the subject.<br /><br />As regards qualifications - I've got nothing formal on the subject. I really should get some I suppose, but I value Mickey Diamond's high opinion of my work rather more than some letters after my name.<br /><br />My degrees are a Baccalaureate in Pure Mathematics and Computer Science, a Masters (with distinction) in Information Technology, a few post-grad certificates in Science Communication etc etc, and I'm currently working on my PhD on the use of Meta-Genetic Algorithms. Whether it will end up as a doctorate in Computer Science, Software Engineering, or Computational Chemistry is still undetermined, it's multi-disciplinary. Specialisation, as R.A.Heinlein said, is for insects.<br /><br />I've been called on by professors of medicine and psychology here at the ANU to give talks on this issue. I've also been called on to give non-technical talks to general audiences on the subject.<br /><br />Six years ago, before my peculiar change, I knew almost nothing. I've had to research the area, and even things like the CCR25a and Milano mutations, just for the health of my son - and my own of course.<br /><br />M.Italiano has an MBBS, and is a longtime Scientific Advisor to OII - Organisation Intersex International. He knows vastly more about the biology than I do. That wouldn't be hard, it's only in this one very specialised and abstruse area that I have any significant knowledge.<br /><br />I recommend that in addition to the genetics, you have a look a some of the articles I've recently blogged about. There's one on Dr V.Drantz's work that will be published soon, and you should go read <a href="http://americantransman.com/2010/08/09/part-4-male-gender-identity-in-an-individual-with-complete-androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/#comment-527" rel="nofollow">the article by American Trans Man</a> too. Dr Ecker's powerpoint presentation on neuro-anatomy is also good - you'll find it via <a href="http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/brain-gender-identity-presentation-by.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>, along with a long reading list.<br /><br />I have a great deal of respect for Dr Jeffrey Satinover, by the way, and anyone interested in the science of cognition - how our brains work - should be familiar with his works on the subject. His works on the Kabbalah etc, not so much. But as I said, specialisation is for insects, and I don't consider his lack of formal qualifications in areas outside psychiatry and physics to be at all significant. He's a polymath.Zoe Brainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13712045376060102538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-50935824125441449722010-08-16T10:12:26.274+10:002010-08-16T10:12:26.274+10:00Lloyd, I've granted that someone can be self f...Lloyd, I've granted that someone can be self fertilizable and therefore of two true sexes. But I have trouble believing for others there isn't a true sex. Is not the triu sex a female for a person who can only produce eggs and have say 3 kids just because she may have some factial hair? Is her true sex not female because she may have small breasts? But if she is not fertile as a female then OK but we get into tricky territory. Since the sry complex go through an egg, we get tricky. So if we leave out sry genes and sexchromosomes then the gonads are primary and genitals and hormones are secondary indicators. So if <br />someone has testicles and on the outside they have female appearance<br />it would seem their true sex is male. Getting to your other question, it would seem tough for those who don't agree in same sex marriage to permit someone with testicular feminization and who has testes to marry a normal male with testes. I think I mentioned there is some talk of using the testes and getting sperm to masture-two people who only have sperm cells are true sex males. That is what I was saying that Dr. Whitehead has declared them as male pseudohermaphrodites-meaning they are true sex males but with female outside appearance characteristics. Seems if they want to do sex changes and also this monkeying around stuff like ivf then they could also develop a procedure so that someone is not resistant to androgens and the ones with testicular feminization could be changed with improved technology to be just regular guys.<br />BRain has already put on an article abou someone with complete <br />case who has a masculine gender.Anonymous Andynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-60746474261998754622010-08-16T08:46:33.842+10:002010-08-16T08:46:33.842+10:00Andy,
There isn't a single defining true sex i...Andy,<br />There isn't a single defining true sex indicator. There are a whole horde of indicators. And these indicators take a range of values but for most people will be in one of two ranges, There might be a very large overlap between these ranges as there is in height. There might be few in the overlap ranges as there will be for the sizes of most parts of the genitalia. Remember that both sexes have all the same structures but developed differently e. g the glans penis and the clitoris are the same structure and there is a small blind vagina analogue in men.<br /><br />And a person might have characteristics within the male range in one characteristic but within the female range in others and not fit into either group on still others. Male and female are populations and biological populations have fuzzy boundaries. For most purposes you so not impose an a priori classification rule but rather you you look at the populations and assign a best fit on multiple criteria,<br /><br />With a classification into sexes, for social purposes, for interacting with people we should not look at some defining essence but at what classification is useful. Most people will clearly fall into one of two clusters. Some will not fit as well but it is still a good idea to treat them as if they were more clearly within a cluster and if need be help the make themselves a better fit. And some don't really fit well at all into either cluster and we have to accept them as the outliers that they are.Lloyd Flackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832519369660328832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-5841518565788333832010-08-16T02:47:36.545+10:002010-08-16T02:47:36.545+10:00Dear Brain, You are being kind of harsh. I'd l...Dear Brain, You are being kind of harsh. I'd like to submit this to Drs. Crabb, Mohler, Whitehead and<br />Satinover. I'm just the messenger.<br />But you and Italiano come up with some quite rare exceptions in all of this. OK about you and Italiano med history your comment is reasonable. But to submit this to the 4 we should know what credentials you people have.<br />The references both of you provided<br />are not common. Self fertilizable humans, cells in the blood that may become eggs, XY animals who are fertile with their SRY and even reports of true hermaphrodites humans who send their SRY complex through their eggs. This defies all kinds of traditional rules. <br />Rocket scientists are supposed to be smart, but seriously what is your field?<br />And Italino is a bachelor of medicine and surgery of some sort?<br />It seems more on topic to ask how many intersexes he treats than about<br />I don't know what epicycles are and to me that seems off topic. <br />But if the SRY gene complex now is not a true sex indicator, what do we tell Crabb, Whitehead, Satinover and Albert Mohler what is the true sex indicator? Heck if a person is self fertilizable then they have two true sexes both a female and a male. But what about a person who doesn't have two true sexes, what is their one true sex?anonymous andynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-1579652665699172242010-08-15T18:09:35.185+10:002010-08-15T18:09:35.185+10:00Last time I was in the USA was last month. I had n...Last time I was in the USA was last month. I had no problems.<br /><br />I'm also aware of the data encoded on the chip on my Australian passport. It includes previous names etc. Any immigration section anywhere in the world which has the capability to read the chip has this data displayed. Not all do.<br /><br />Immigration isn't my concern.Zoe Brainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13712045376060102538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-75231406200371798592010-08-15T17:42:25.638+10:002010-08-15T17:42:25.638+10:00Just to follow up -
Just took a number of flight...Just to follow up - <br /><br />Just took a number of flights here in the US.<br /><br />Gender and birth date are not printed on the boarding pass/ticket.<br /><br />As such, it is _impossible_ for the TSA agents to know what was put at ticketing.<br /><br />As such, you have no need to worry - if the computer doesn't like you, you get slightly higher levels of screening (pat down and hand search of bags).<br /><br /><br />THAT BEING SAID,<br />The computers at the customs entry point are a little different. If you have been in the US before as the opposite sex, it will show it.<br /><br />If they ask, be honest. If they look confused after scanning your passport, it may be procedurally easiest to volunteer.<br /><br />In either case, there should be no issues.Kathrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13719096307709178332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-45704562671141319162010-08-15T16:45:35.340+10:002010-08-15T16:45:35.340+10:00THREAD DERAILMENT ALERT!!! Incipient Ad Hominem Ar...THREAD DERAILMENT ALERT!!! Incipient Ad Hominem Argumentation Detected!<br /><br />Anonymous - what's your real name? Because if you don't give that, you have no business asking others about their medical history.<br /><br />That they give references to the papers dealing with their evidence is adequate - and necessary. You in general have not (with a few honourable exceptions).<br /><br />You've dodged every question you've been asked. Please do some answering yourself, with references. I don't care whether you're a high-school dropout or an emeritus professor of biology, as long as you state the evidence for your conclusions. The facts speak for themselves, and I have no use for "argument by authority".<br /><br />Yes, there are way too many exceptions for any simplistic theologically based beliefs to account for. We faced the same problem with heliocentric astronomical models, having to add epicycles upon epicycles to conform with the theologically required "perfect circles" of orbits.<br /><br />Now please answer the questions that have been asked of you. Attempted thread derailment of this kind does no-one any good. We're trying to determine what a complex reality is, not engage in some intellectual urination contest.<br /><br />And a reminder - please add a monicker, so we know which Anonymous we're talking too. If you can't think of one, Anne O'Namus, Susan De Nimme, or Norman Dennis Ploom are recommended.Zoe Brainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13712045376060102538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-73139438895822891072010-08-15T16:06:58.086+10:002010-08-15T16:06:58.086+10:00Brain and Italiano are coming up with way too many...Brain and Italiano are coming up with way too many exceptions and the exceptions are very peculiar ones. What are their credentials and is Italiano also allegedly intersex?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-70164978456905607722010-08-15T07:31:12.739+10:002010-08-15T07:31:12.739+10:00Anne,
What is your criterion for assigning sex? If...Anne,<br />What is your criterion for assigning sex? If it is as it seems to be the presence of an active SRY initiated gene cascade how much damage to that cascade does there have to be be before you will regard it as inactive? What is the justification for your criterion?<br /><br />And do you believe that what we treat a person as should be determined by your criterion when it conflicts with the phenotype? If so why? Should we use such a criterion when we have no way of knowing it and even the person concerned does not know themself?<br /><br />As an example if it is discovered that someone has CAIS should their passport be changed to male? Should their marriage be regarded as homosexual and possibly invalid? If you disapprove of homosexuality who should they have sexual relationships with or should they abstain from such relationships? Your own position please, not simply quotations of another's position.Lloyd Flackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832519369660328832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-21052277945589311012010-08-15T06:53:00.645+10:002010-08-15T06:53:00.645+10:00Dear Anonymous, Gosh. OK. Even so-called chromosom...Dear Anonymous, Gosh. OK. Even so-called chromosomal sex sex is not determined at conception. An XY zygote can undergo mitotic non-disjunctions and anaphase lag giving rise to an XX embryo. Surprised? Don't be.<br />There is more.<br /><br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452130<br />(Even XY individuals can be born from humans who can autofertilize. The plant vs. human analogy doesn't exist. The organs don't need to line up as you state, although an embryo can have both sets of fully functioning reproductive <br />systems).<br /><br />http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/256289-overview<br />(Now let's take a look at that SRY gene and its functioing pathway going through an egg). Most XX true hermaphrodites who have kids<br />have male kids. Yes. what a surprise. You know what that means? OK. it means that since they are getting fertilized by a normal X from the male and an X<br />from the true hermaphrodite who has the SRY gene and its pathway going through an egg. PS-I don't like to use hermaphrodite but am using the word here for your clarification)<br /><br />http://www.stem-cell-blog.com/2005/07/bone_marrow_stem_cells_produce.php<br />(bone marrow blod cells can produce eggs in adult animals. How do you know they ca't in humans)?<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15238593<br />(fetal cels including XY cells can become functional thryoid tissue in an pregnant woman as well as other tissues).<br /><br />The XYd1 alteration in mice produces fertile female mice in the presence of an intact SRY gene. he SRY gene goes through the egg in mice. (Voila)<br /><br />OK now XO Turner's can be fertile females. Thus a second X or Y is not needed. Zoe provided an example of MOST<br />(as you say) of the Y going through the egg in humans. I provided same for the SRY system in humans. Thus 2 X chromosomes is not needed and the SRY gene and its pathway can be transmitted via an egg. OK lecture over. Byeeeeeeee<br /><br />M Italiano, MBBS (AM)M Italianonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-83277916327116676932010-08-15T05:23:25.471+10:002010-08-15T05:23:25.471+10:00Another paper on Ovaries and Female Phenotype in a...Another paper on Ovaries and Female Phenotype in a Girl with 46,XY Karyotype and Mutations in the Cbx2 Gene. AM J HUM GENET May 15, 2009 page 5<br />"Given the young age of our patient, even the high FSH levels cannot reflect accurately the potential for pubertal function and fertility. If the similarity between mouse and human phenotype remains throughout life, unexplained sterility might me a sign of CBX2 abnormalities in the human population"<br /><br />It seems that in mice and humans that a SRY gene (entire Y chromosome) does not go along with an egg.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-48607036188035037902010-08-15T02:36:51.275+10:002010-08-15T02:36:51.275+10:00You have not shown that an XY or XXY eggs exists. ...You have not shown that an XY or XXY eggs exists. The SRY does not go through the egg. The person in fact was only XX"Y" meaning they did not have the SRY complex-it was deleted. Upon further reading of the paper I see it also says that not only was the SRY deleted but that a translocation of extra X material went onto the Y chromosome!-something you also didn't note. You have not showed even 1 example of sperm coming from an XX individual because that don't happen-of course unless the person also has XY or XXY (LOL) and is a chimera. Women who carry male children have XY cells in their blood...what does that mean? <br />It don't mean these cells are functional or can become eggs....Again with Petra assuming she didn't have IVF this "autofertilization" is most definitely a parthenote which in humans won't become a person. The XY vs. XX sex binary is so fundamental. Dr. Albert Mohler deals with this also in his stuff on stem cells. It is currently not even possible to envision how to use technology to get an XY cell to become an egg or a XX cell to become a sperm in the lab-Consider the following REFERENCE by Debrah JH Mathews, PJ Donovan, J Harris, R Lovell-Badge and others July 2009<br />in Cell Stem Cell Forum Vol. 5 page 12 "There has been discussion...of the possibility of using PSC-derived gametes in same-sex reproduction....though headline grabbing, faces significant if not insurmountable scientific barriers. In brief, due to the complexity of the human egg and because it must contain all the resources necessary to develop into an embryo, it will be very difficult to derive eggs that could be used for reproduction from XY (chromosomally male) cells, especially eggs able to give chromosomally normal offspring. The converse, deriving competent sperm from XX (chromosomally female) cells, faces so many scientific challenges-in particular the fact that at least some of the genes critical for sperm production are located on the Y chromosome-that it is difficult to envision how it would be possible..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-17214952419727805602010-08-14T16:31:52.500+10:002010-08-14T16:31:52.500+10:00Anne - please permit me to doubt whether Dr Crabb ...Anne - please permit me to doubt whether Dr Crabb or Dr Whitehead have ever considered the cases I have mentioned in formulating their conclusions. Perhaps you should ask them. <br /><br />And since we don't know what genes were in the "anomalous tissue" that was removed from me at age 20, and that the only karyotype test I've had gave exactly the same results as for the XXY mother's... I don't see that even using your own eccentric definitions (for you seem to change them with each comment) that you can possibly determine which sex I "really" am. We just don't have the data you'd need.<br /><br />It appears - and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - that you've started with a pre-determined conclusion, and are desperately trying to defend that position.<br /><br />I'd be fascinated to hear the biological details of the "And there is only one virgin birth that has occured". In which medical literature is this described? I've not found any such cases which have come to term.<br /><br />Meanwhile, some more light reading:<br /><i>AMH and AMH receptor defects in persistent Müllerian duct syndrome</i> by Josso et al, Human Reproduction Update, Volume 11, Number 4, July 2005 , pp. 351-356(6)<br /><br /><i>True hermaphroditism with oogenesis and spermatogenesis.</i> Shannon & Nikolaides Aust N Z J Obstet Gynaecol. 1973 Aug;13(3):184-7.<br /><br />I think that's the first known confirmed case of a patient producing both sperm and ova.<br /><br /><i>Ovulation in a cytogenetically proved phenotypically male fertile hermaphrodite.</i> by Parvin Br J Surg. 1982 May;69(5):279-80.<br /><br />I'll quote:<br />"An unusual case of true hermaphroditism is reported. The patient was a 32-year-old phenotypically male true hermaphrodite. Histology of his removed ovary suggested that ovulation had, at some time, occurred. He had also fathered a child and this is believed to be the first case of a cytogenetically proved true hermaphrodite who is fertile as a male."<br /><br /><i>Spontaneous ovulation in a true hermaphrodite with normal male phenotype and a rare 46,XX/47,XXY Klinefelter's mosaic karyotype.</i> by Kanaka-Gantenbein et al Horm Res. 2007;68(3):139-44. Epub 2007 Mar 26.<br />"CONCLUSION: The importance of full histological, cytogenetic and molecular investigation and of interdisciplinary approach in every single patient with sex differentiation disorders is highlighted by this rare case of spontaneous ovulation in a true hermaphrodite with normal male external genitalia and Klinefelter mosaicism."<br /><br /><i>Ovarian Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor: a SRY gene-independent pathway of pseudomale gonadal differentiation.</i> Hittmair et al Hum Pathol. 1997 Oct;28(10):1206-10.<br /><br />"Sertoli-Leydig cell tumors (SLCT) are rare sex-cord stromal tumors of the ovary composed of undifferentiated gonadal stromal cells, Leydig cells (LC), and Sertoli cells (SC), with the latter forming structures resembling fetal testicular tubules."<br /><br />Cases of individuals with both a set of functional testes and functional ovaries were described as far back as 1871.<br />See "Anaesthesia, hospitalism, hermaphroditism, and a proposal to stamp out small-pox and other contagious diseases"<br />Volume 2 of Works of Sir James Y, Simpson, Publ. Adam and Charles Black, 1871Zoe Brainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13712045376060102538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-43028592364487022202010-08-14T15:41:03.489+10:002010-08-14T15:41:03.489+10:00Neil Whitehead.. the Committed Christian who wrot...Neil Whitehead.. the Committed Christian who wrote:<br /><i>"Most transsexuals believe that their longing for sex-change is biologically determined. However there is no real evidence for a biological basis for transsexuality in terms of measurable differences in genes, brain microstructure or physiology."</i><br /><br />Now being fair, he's not actually quoted any work on the subject since 1996, and most of the evidence has come in since then. But he ignores contrary evidence as inconsistent with his religious belief.<br /><br />Anne O'Namus - you make some interesting claims, could you please give some references to research that shows <br /><i>"But you don't have XX sperm or XY eggs. You DONT have eggs with a Y chromosome or an SRY gene in these eggs"</i><br /><br />Especially since we've already shown that either an XY or XXY egg exists (or as you put it, an XX(Y)). And that XX sperm exists, or at least, sperm exists from a person with XX chromosomes and no detectable Y chromosome or SrY complex. Not even 0.06% Y, but I have to say the tests probably wouldn't have detected so small a proportion. It may be possible that everyone on the planet has at least some 45X and 46XX cells. Certainly all women carrying male children have 46XY cells in their blood, and for at least a month after giving birth or miscarrying.<br /><br /><i>Petra Henderson that you mentioned is not a self fertilization. This can't happen in humans. What you described is merely a parthenote.</i><br />The pathology report said auto-fertilisation, but how you'd distinguish that from parthenogenesis is something I'm not certain of. I believe the X chromosome was from one cell line, the Y another, but the e-mailed path report I got from her didn't include that data. I'm treading very close to revealing confidential medical data anyway. I don't mind that when it's my own, but not someone else's.<br /><br />Here's a quote from "Autoreproduction in Hermaphrodites by Joseph D.Schulman and Richard J.Sherins Hum Reprod. 1995 Mar;10(3):500-1.<br /><br />That shows some of the difficulties in such cases:<br /><br /><i>Regardless of the genetic cause of a particular case of<br />hermaphroditism, meiosis in such individuals would be<br />expected to produce a wide variety of genetically different<br />gametes; hence any offspring resulting from autoreplication<br />either of a mosaic or a chimaera through gamete formation<br />and gamete fusion would be a genetically distinct as well as<br />potentially normal child.<br />Thus, it can be speculated that autoreplication by certain<br />human hermaphrodites is not biologically impossible.</i><br /><br />Petra's case appears to be the proof of that, I'll see what papers got written about it.<br /><br />Now I'm sure that Crabb's and Whutehead's views, based on religious belief rather than research, are popular with a large segment of the community. That segment also contains a large proportion of people who believe that hail and snow are stored in containers in the sky, and the "windows of heaven" open to let in the "waters above" when it rains.<br /><br />Such notions are also based on religious belief rather than experimental results too. But so what? The question should be, are they true? What evidence is there for and against? Just because a belief is based on religion doesn't automatically make it superstitious nonsense. Let's look at the evidence.<br /><br />Over to you, Anne.Zoe Brainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13712045376060102538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-71899080640196612692010-08-14T12:59:57.766+10:002010-08-14T12:59:57.766+10:00Lloyd wrote "In a 46XX woman there is usually...Lloyd wrote "In a 46XX woman there is usually active feminization happening not just an absence of the SRY gene. The very existence of a 45X sydrome is a give away on that."<br /><br />I've already granted that a 45X person is a woman and even a XY gonadal dysgenesis person with a <br />mutated sry pathway is. The latter are barren unless for examples given embryo donation or they have some XX cells that give them eggs. They are not fertile female since the Y SRY pathway don't go through an egg.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-72509343201713875932010-08-14T12:48:27.540+10:002010-08-14T12:48:27.540+10:00Lloyd, I am talking about humans. We are used to t...Lloyd, I am talking about humans. We are used to terming a person with CAIS as a female but their true sex is male. Like it says here they are called brothers and they are male pseudohermaphrodites.<br /> http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/full/30/3/230<br /><br />they got functional XY chromosomes and a functional sry pathway-meaning the sry gene and its pathway genes are not broken. thus the male dermining pathway is not mutated. it has also been said that ivf can maybe mature the immature sperm in a dish for fertilization. Dr. Neil E Whitehead has written that they should not be able to marry men.<br /><br />I am restating what a large number of people infuenced by Dr. Crabb and Dr. Whitehead state about a either or sex. It is an alternative to what some people think that AE Brain provides some wrong information on a few sites.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-25134952688798911972010-08-14T11:30:50.329+10:002010-08-14T11:30:50.329+10:00Anonymous: Her name is Zoe. She goes by her name -...Anonymous: Her name is Zoe. She goes by her name - you hide behind "anonymous". Why should anyone take you seriously?<br /><br />Occurred has two r's. <br /><br />And: that virgin birth <i>allegedly</i> happened. There's no actual, definitive, proof. Belief is not proof. Belief such as that is, as far as I am concerned, little different from mass-delusion. (Yeah, yeah - I'm going to hell. With your bigotry, I'll meet you down there. We can continue this discussion then, if you wish?)<br /><br />*Carolyn Ann* <-My real name. Unlike you, I don't hide behind a mask. I'm not a coward, and neither is Zoe. You are. <br /><br />(Zoe is not responsible for the irritation, nor the words or sentiment expressed in this comment. Carolyn Ann Grant is.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00333372966116029977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-20879291967684138112010-08-14T09:12:10.940+10:002010-08-14T09:12:10.940+10:00Whatever your name is,
Just what is your criterion...Whatever your name is,<br />Just what is your criterion for deciding what sex an individual belongs to? The presence of the SRY gene will not do since it is only present in therians (marsupials and placentals. What is your criterion in other organisms? <br /><br />Besides, it is not the sole determiner of sex. In a 46XX woman there is usually active feminization happening not just an absence of the SRY gene. The very existence of a 45X sydrome is a give away on that.<br /><br />So are you assigning sex on the basis or chromosomes , on genes, on the basis of activated genetic pathways or on the basis of the final phenotype? What if the phenotype is the result of environmental effects? If pathways how much of the genetic pathway has to be active?<br /><br />And you haven't answered my question about what sex should be on the passport of someone eith CAIS.<br /><br />You appear to be trying to fit a messy reality into clear categories. Why? What is wrong with admitting that things aren't allways clear cut?Lloyd Flackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832519369660328832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-25324352657494973782010-08-14T02:29:00.984+10:002010-08-14T02:29:00.984+10:00AE Brain, A teratoma is a tumour. It is not a pers...AE Brain, A teratoma is a tumour. It is not a person although it has some tissues in it. The case of <br />Petra Henderson that you mentioned is not a self fertilization. This can't happen in humans. What you described is merely a parthenote.<br />And there is only one virgin birth that has occured. Thte XXY phenotypic female you mentioned with testicular feminization is just that-they don't have ovaries -they only have tests and their appearance is female. The one with 69 chromosomes in there and XY. Sure you can have SRY in the follicles and in the ovary, even ones with gonadal dygenesis. <br />But you don't have XX sperm or XY eggs. You DONT have eggs with a Y chromosome or an SRY gene in these eggs. That is a MALE sperm situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5573426.post-23544282697870017572010-08-14T02:16:50.108+10:002010-08-14T02:16:50.108+10:00Zimbel, AE Brain had a normal sry pathway. that = ...Zimbel, AE Brain had a normal sry pathway. that = male. I am aware that there can be things that impair a normal XY state with its usual sry gene activated. In the absence of a normal XY activated SRY pathway, you don't get a testis. you get ovarian. Thus an XY can be a female if the sry directed pathway is disturbed. But <br />there are no XY or Y eggs That doesn't happen. They are barren unless they get an embryo donation or unless they have some XX cells like the example AE Brain mentioned. remember "predominantly" XY.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com