Tuesday, 11 November 2008

Today's Battle

At the Grauniad, where noted Transphobe Julie Bindel was nominated for an award as "Journalist of the Year" by UK GLB(but not T) group STONEWALL. Named after a riot against police oppression of trans* and gays started by a Transgendered woman, to add a touch of Irony.

Julie B is what is known as a second wave Radical Feminist Lesbian. Meaning she hates men. Literally, she's written an article on why she feels that way. She also is committed to dissolving gender boundaries, stating as an axiomatic matter of faith that all gender is purely a social construct, so men don't actually exist. So that's why she wants a woman-only space with strict gender apartheid, and wishes to eliminate or deny the existence of anyone who proves that gender is partly biological.

Consistency - and even basic humanity - are not her strong suites.

Here's Julie in full cry :
Call me old-fashioned, but I thought the one battle we feminists won fair and square was to convince at least those left of centre that gender roles are made up. They are not real. We play at them. We develop traditional masculine or feminine traits by being indoctrinated, not because we are biologically programmed to behave in those ways.
Think about a world inhabited just by transsexuals. It would look like the set of Grease.
The paper was forced to apologise for that one - though Julie says she was just apologising for the gratuitous insults and tone, not the content.

Here she is though after being given the news that her nomination came last in the field. You see, the largest transgender demonstration ever held in the UK protested - in a very civilised English way - outside STONEWALL's galah awards, and she didn't like that, not one little bit. How dare they!
Being nominated for an award is supposed to be a nice thing, right? Well not for me. When I was told a few weeks ago that I had been shortlisted for a journalist of the year award by the gay rights organisation Stonewall, I knew I would not win. I was certainly a worthy contender, but I knew from that moment that all hell was about to break loose.

You need a little history first: in 2004 I wrote a column in this newspaper about a Canadian male-to-female transsexual who had taken a rape crisis centre to court over its decision not to invite her to be a counsellor for rape victims. I questioned whether a sex change would make someone a woman, or simply a man who has had surgery.
The fact that the counsellor had been raped herself, and had previous experience counselling other victims, with ratings such as "excellent" and "gifted"... that doesn't matter.
We became "lesbian and gay", but soon bisexuals shouted, "Us too". Transsexuals, having received short shrift from heterosexual society, asked to be included in our rainbow alliance, followed by Queer (anyone who is into "kinky" sex), then Questioning (those having a think about who and how they might shag in the future), and finally (for now) Intersex (those born with biological features that are simultaneously perceived as male and female).
Queer meaning anyone into "kinky" sex? I can't believe the depth of pig-ignorance this displays. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect from flat-earth fundamentalists. To continue:
But I for one do not wish to be lumped in with an ever-increasing list of folk defined by "odd" sexual habits or characteristics.
You know, like those Freaks with Intersex conditions. She's Normal, and so has the right to dictate what others should and should not do, in the name of Politically Pure Radical Lesbian Feminism.
Shall we just start with A and work our way through the alphabet? A, androgynous, b, bisexual, c, cat-fancying d, devil worshipping. Where will it ever end?
Hopefully with a change of career for her, from a noted columnist an a national newspaper. Well, maybe if she didn't classify transsexuals, bisexuals and the intersexed amongst satanists and practicers of bestiality, it might help.

Anyway, here's what I wrote in the comments. The usual attempt to inform rather than insult.
Intersexed people tend to keep a low profile. It's safer for us, and besides which, so much of the Gender Politics based on competing philosophies that ignore medical facts reminds us too much of Kindergarten. Not a happy place for some of us, by the way, And medical facts are things that can kill us if we ignore them, some of our medical conditions are life-threatening.

There are amongst us people who identify as male - but with a congenital medical problem. There are those of us who identify as female, again with a congenital medical problem. I'm in that group, by the way. There are those of us who identify as neither, as Neutrius. And those who identify as Androgyne, something of both. Actual degree of physical Intersexuality has little impact on this, women can be born with bodies that look mainly male, and the reverse.

There are a few of us whose appearance naturally changes over time - see Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency. by Cohen-Ketternis. Most such natural "sex reversals" are Female to Male, I'm in the tiny minority that go the other way, but the legal and social problems are much the same. Unlike most who are Intersexed, we can't hide.

JB doesn't think we exist - or less charitably, if we do, then she thinks we shouldn't. You see, we are acutely aware of the real differences between Typical Male and Typical Female, as well as all the bluriness and complexity that makes a strict binary model of either Gender or Sex meaningless. We know that for some, the binary models fit really well, no matter what political philosophy you espouse. And for some, they don't fit at all, regardless of what various religious or political beliefs you hold. Reality doesn't care.

Call me old-fashioned, but I thought the one battle we feminists won fair and square was to convince at least those left of centre that gender roles are made up. They are not real. We play at them. We develop traditional masculine or feminine traits by being indoctrinated, not because we are biologically programmed to behave in those ways.

Our very existence denies that. Gender Roles are a social construct, there's no "gene" for girls preferring pink and boys blue. But Gender is not. There are very real neurological differences in the way we think. It's a Bi-Modal distribution, two peaks, one typically female, the other typically male, but with overlap and some who are in the middle. Complex I know, not simple, but biology is like that.

Transsexuals - those whose emotional responses and thinking patterns (as opposed to learned Gender Role) are atypical for their body form get extreme discomfort. Some have neurology, a brain-body map, that gives them instincts contrary to their anatomy.This gives such intense discomfort, it's indescribable. Many suicide, and substance abuse and induced mental illness is common. Surgery to align brain and body has a 98% success rate (though the co-morbidities may remain after the cause is removed), and every other treatment - from "talking cures" to the full "Clockwork Orange" aversion therapy has a 0.000% success rate. That's in the literature, anyone on the net can verify it.

See BiGender and the Brain for some of the science about gender.

JB is Transphobic by the definition in Stonewall's own pamphlet, but this post by her shows it goes beyond that. She doesn't want to be associated with anyone at all different from her. And she claims the right to decide what's best for others on the basis of her normality, and in the name of philosophically pure Radical Feminist Lesbianism.

She's a "worthy contender" for "Journalist of the year" - in her own mind. Others differ, and in her opinion, they have no right to.

The problem is that STONEWALL, the organisation, is guilty not of Transphobia, but of "aiding and abetting". JB is just another shock-jock columnist, one who gets the Grauniad extra readers by being "controversial". A professional Troll, whose eccentric views are exploited to sell papers. That she often writes articles on genuine issues such as gynephobic violence is a bonus.

Having such a person, one who has now revealed herself in this article as highly Xenophobic, nominated for an award is against every principle of diversity STONEWALL stands for. Or should do. We have been given good reason to doubt that now.
So why does all this matter? Surely it's just more silly sophomoric political games, people shouting at each other in the battle of the -isms, with no-one but they interested in the outcome?

It matters because of this - the events I wrote about in Nothing Unusual. I'd ask you to read that first. Here's the video anyway.

There's a sequel. From Eyewitness News :
MEMPHIS, TN – Duanna Johnson was found shot to death in North Memphis, according to her lawyer.

Memphis police say it happened just before midnight at Hollywood near Staten Avenue, Sunday, November 9, 2008.

According to detectives, when officers arrived at the scene, they found the body lying in the street. Police say a witness heard gunfire and then saw three people running away from the scene. Investigators do not have any suspects at this time.

Lawyer Murray Wells confirmed to Eyewitness News that the person who was killed is his client Duanna Johnson. He says Johnson was often in the area where she was killed.

Murray says Johnson was trying to leave Memphis and go back to her hometown of Chicago. According to Murray, Jonson was just about homeless trying to live in Memphis. He says the apartment where Jonson was living did not have power. Murray says he was helping Johnson buy a bus ticket to Chicago.
It matters because just as the beating of Duanna Johnson was not widely publicised in MSM, her murder will go unremarked either, even if a ballistics exam shows (purely by coincidence) a police-issue weapon was involved. It matters because if the Julie Bindels of the world are allowed to preach their poisonous Xenophobia without being called on it, then consequences such as this are inescapable.


Anonymous said...

It's sad to hear that.

Memphis is not exactly a place with strict gun control laws, though not because of Memphis itself, which is run by left-wingers, but because of the state it's in, whose populace is generally opposed to gun control:


Battybattybats said...

I was a little more generous to Julie Bindel in the message I tried to send her over facebook and that I posted with additional commentary on my blog.


She considers herself a Human Rights Advocate and I can see where she may have gone wrong in her attempts to argue that TG folk shouldn't HAVE to have surgery and got carried away into saying they SHOULDN'T have surgery and seems since then to be locked into painting herself further and further into the corner trying to justify her initial position and defend herslf from criticism.

Alas her viewpoint is thoroughly contrary to one of the most important Human Rights principles, the right of the individual to utter control over their own body. Whether saying no to a sexual advance or refusing a life-saving transfusion or heart transplant through to choosing to abort or choosing to get a tattoo or piercing. It's all based on the same basic right, the right to choose what is done or not done to ones own self.

She could defend TG folk who choose not to have surgery and to have the option of that choice with ease and be consistent with that right but she can't say they should not be able to get that surgery and be consistent with that right. And speaking out against it in one instance does so in all instances, thats how human rights work. They are all or nothing.

I hope one day she understands the difference and stops weakening womens fundamental right to choose to have or not have abortions, to say no to sex or marriage and every other major womens rights issue by arguing against the basic human right to total control of the self.

mythusmage said...


Here's another case of wingbat vile. OneNewsNow is getting all hateful about transgendered and intersexed in public life. Spread the word.

We have enough problems as it is without some people concocting more out of delusions and blather.

Lucrece said...

"Professional Trolls". Reminds me of Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore over at Bilerico.

It'll be a long time before we get over these individuals' resentful drivel disguised as "revolutionary writing".

Anonymous said...

This all originates from a regression to this:


Anonymous said...

Zoe Brain said...

I think it's pretty perverse to say that people who expect to be asexual afterwards, and are often asexual before, do something for sexual gratification.

I think it's amazingly perverse to say that the ones who are attracted to other women both before and after are a subtype of gay man.

And when you comment, please, please, please don't ignore the statement that appears in nice friendly letters above the comment entry window. Where you can't miss it.

Anonymous commenters - please add a signature (doesn't have to be your real name) on each post of yours. Anne O'Namus, Norm D. Ploom, Angry from Kent, Demosthenes, or even your real initials, it doesn't matter.

To ignore this request is not preverse, but it's just plain rude and thoughtless.

Anonymous said...

I've seen some transsexuals claim that post-op, they are able to cease use dilators after a while, because the vagina stops closing up.

Is this true?

Ranmara said...

"But I for one do not wish to be lumped in with an ever-increasing list of folk defined by "odd" sexual habits or characteristics."

Thankyou for highlighting this comment. It's a shocking thing for any journalist to say, especially a supposed supporter of diversity.

Anyway... Not that it's the same as being trans but people who *do* have odd sexual habits or characteristics have just as much of a right to be equal members of society too as long as it's harmless! So personally I'd be quite happy to represent their rights too as a sincere supporter of diversity.

- Alexandra

Anonymous said...

To "Is this true?" (an odd signature indeed... lol.)

"Anonymous said... I've seen some transsexuals claim that post-op, they are able to cease use dilators after a while, because the vagina stops closing up."

"Is this true?"

I know many m2f TS post-ops who do not need to dilate, but all have regular normal sex with their husbands or partners, using the "Human dilator" that their men have.

I do on the other-hand know of one who does not have regular sex, (a close m2f friend living quite near) who has never dilated in the last five years and has no described loss and seems to be OK for spontaneous problem free occasional sex with a man when she finds one she likes (maybe once a year?), but another living nearer to me who failed to dilate the first year after SRS and had an almost total closure and needed a reappraisal of her surgery and another stay in hospital to reopen the depth... The first was operated on by my own SRS surgeon here in Frankfurt/main, the other (although living in the same area as the first and I and our surgeon) decided to have her SRS by another in Munich 150 miles away so it may be a result of the methodology used?

After my SRS I went several years without sex, before allowing myself to try having sex with a man, and do not feel it is anything to write home about... In fact if offered a choice of sex or a nice cup of hot chocolate or in summer glass of cold coca-cola the drinks win hands down.

I do now have a long term friend (who since we met in 2005 wants to marry me, but due to the experiences I had with my divorce after nearly 30 years marriage I refuse) who (Thank god) is not very sexually active. Mainly due to his age, then we are both over the hill. He slightly older than me and was born during WW2 and that keeps his demands down, which suits my "the less the better" attitude to sex fine, and so when he is off sex due to hay fever, strained or creaky joints after gardening, etc. or other general illnesses such as flu, etc., I then revert to occasional mechanical maintenance, and dilate then at least (if I remember to) once a week, usually while laying in the bath, just to be safe, but am not sure it does much.

I have forgotten (or during periods of depression and separation during divorce, simply could not be bothered) to dilate for a few months while still single and while still relatively new post-op, but saw no real reduction of depth, just a need to get used to it again...

Mechanical dilation is for me, except in the bath, painful as I tense-up and try to fight it. Normal sex seems OK as I self-lubricate within seconds if the right forplay is taken, and have multiple orgasms quite easily, and then if it is part of an overall thing with love, kissing, stroking, hugging, etc., and so the intimacy plays a big part.

I suppose I should point out I am not only a TS post-op, but also Intersexed, have ovaries and a severely shriveled womb discovered inside me during emergency surgery that do not attach to the neo-vagina.

The only difference this makes to a normal TS post op is the fact I do not need to take any hormones or any other medication. In case the Hormones were a possible cause for any later shrinkage or lack of lubrication???

Getting back on Topic, I was very very sad to see Duanna Johnson get shot, especially as she was trying to leave Memphis to get away from the white-power ex-cops (and many still cops) who were out for her.

I think the police can say she was not shot by one of their officers, and cross their fingers that no one ask if she was shot by ex-police such as McRae of his KKK Hooded mates.

Bindel probably dances for joy when she hears such news... Remember she is not only a Radical Lesbian, but a Born Again Christian with desires to be the next archbishop of Canterbury!

She wrote in the Guardian Newspaper on Saturday 31st of January 2004, under the now famous "Gender benders, beware" title, she referred to a post op as "a man who had disposed of his meat and two veg"...

"Last summer, it (the UK's EOC) supported
the case of five male to female transsexuals,
only one of whom had disposed of his meat and
two veg, on the grounds of sex discrimination
after a pub landlord objected to one of them
using the women's toilets. The claim was
rejected, with the judge stating that although
he accepted the claimants' wish to regard
themselves as women, a person's wish "doesn't
determine what he is". Quite.

...and later in same article and an ongoing attack of both transwoman and transmen, said

"To go back to my five men and a toilet, I
don't have a problem with men disposing of
their genitals, but it does not make them
women, in the same way that shoving a bit of
vacuum hose down your 501s does not make
you a man.

Source http://tinyurl.com/6ycf98 or long under...


Regards Petra

Battybattybats said...

"Anyway... Not that it's the same as being trans but people who *do* have odd sexual habits or characteristics have just as much of a right to be equal members of society too as long as it's harmless! So personally I'd be quite happy to represent their rights too as a sincere supporter of diversity."

I'll go a step further than that actually. As one can argue a tattoo or piercing is harm let alone many kinky sexual practices.

Instead I'd say that so long as everyone involved is giving informed uncoerced consent, is capable of giving informed consent (adult, human, cognitably able to understand everything involved etc), is capable of withdrawing consent at any time (safewords and other similar safety measures where appropriate) then it is ethical choice, ethical behaviour and worthy of support.

Anonymous said...

Petra, Do you have scientific proof that stenosis stops for post-ops after a while and that they no longer have to use dialators to maintain depth?

Zoe Brain said...

Strong anecdotal evidence only. AFAIK there's been no double-blind experiments in the area. There are too many variables - patient age, general health, surgeon, surgical technique etc.

You'd have to conduct it over years, with women in the study having to remain celibate during the period.

FWIW The dilation regime for Dr Brassard is 4 times a day for 45 mins initially, tailing off to 2x a day for 30 mins after the first week, then once daily after 3 months, and after a year it's too variable to say. Many women will be sexually active more than once a week by then anyway.

Dr Suporn's is more rigorous, 2 dilations for 2 hours each every day for the first 3 months, then daily for a year. After that, it depends again.

I'm 2 years post-op with Dr Suporn. I dilate approximately fortnightly, for about a hour. Missing a dilation doesn't seem to make any difference. Neither does it matter if I dilate for 30 mins or 2 hours, nor which sizes.

I'll be seing my OB/GYN soon for a check-up, to see if I have any stenosis.

As regards biological dilation, no comment.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said..."

Is this the same "Anonymous" who also the last time refused to acknowledge Zoe's request to make some sort of human name as signature to your post? or is it another Anonymous???

Hello ?????? (Assuming it is "Anonymous" again, or just ???? if this "Anonymous" is someone else with no name or wish to sign?)

" Petra, Do you have scientific proof that stenosis stops for post-ops after a while and that they no longer have to use dialators to maintain depth?"

No, Nor do I have any "scientific proof" that it does not stop, just reporting my own personal experiences and those of people I know face to face (i.e. not just over the Internet).

That however cannot help you, then in this case, you only know me over the Internet and naturally therefore only third hand my personal friends...

Ask someone you actually know in the real world, it is the best way! After all if they lie to you and you loose depth, you can go round and kick them later, lol.

as to conducting a double blind study, I doubt it would ever be possible to get such proof, then (1). who would not know if they were taking part in the Don't Dilate, or would they tell everyone it is a non-dilate test and then drug the ones who are forcedly dilated when they were stoned out! (2) how will you ensure no one cheats? (Stick a Void if broken seal across the inner labia?) or worse (3) would you (if you are a post op TS?) be willing to risk closure of the vagina by taking part in an experiment to forsake Dilation or natural sex for say two years just to make some Medical student pass his exam with such a thesis ???

Seems to be a totally academic question, then everyone should decide on their own personal feelings and not by some sort of timetable or advice of others.

Best Regards


p.s. I will not bother anymore to answer anyone here called "Anonymous" then it is way too easy to get them all mixed up and think that two or three different Anonymous's are one person... PLEASE See Zoe's quite reasonable request above the text entry field if you write here or reply!

Anonymous said...

You said that the skin becomes muscousal. Is there a scientific paper on that?

Zoe Brain said...

There's reports in medical journals of that, yes.

One paper describing the process for a particular surgical procedure is Adaptation process of the skin graft to vaginal mucosa after McIndoe vaginoplasty

A summary of dead-tree references is in Postsurgical Changes in the Neovagina by M. Italiano. Transgender Treatment Bulletin February 1998 1(2), page 8.


Alesandrescu, D., et. al. (1996). Neocolpopoiesis with split-thickness skin graft as a surgical treatment of vaginal agenesis: Retrospective review of 201 cases. American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology, 174(1), 131-138.

Any particular reason you ask, BTW? I'm in contact Prof Italiano, and if you're after detailed epitheliology and dermatology data, I'm sure he can provide it. It's a bit technical though,his summary is excellent.

Pierce et. al. (1956) demonstrated the conversion of skin to vaginal epithelium, which after twenty years, included normal vaginal PH levels, complete loss of hair, complete loss of pigment, complete loss of sweat glands, and normal vaginal epithelial glycogen levels. They proposed, "the process is not one of metaplasia, for no new cell types are produced. Rather, there is alteration of existing cell layers and the loss of the skin organs." (p.6)

Those post-operative male-to-female transsexuals who amuse themselves with the peculiar statement that they still have a penis, but that it's just turned inside-out should note that not only do they not have a penis, but they don't even have skin of the penis any more. The histology of the tissue has changed. It also responds to hormones in an identical way as does a normal vagina, with "cyclic cornification and mucification" (Sherfey, 1973). The presence of ovaries is not a necessity. For instance, "The estrogenic and early luteal effects demonstrated by Subject 'A' are obvious, and serve as a clinical indication of adequate steroid replacement in this surgically castrated female" (Masters & Johnson, 1966, p. 203).

More impressive is a recent report by Alessandrescu et. al. (1996), who did biopsies on twelve artificially constructed vaginas and found an epithelial structure identical to that of a normal vagina. Two examples are shown in the form of pictures using electron microscopy.

I didn't have "penile inversion" for the very obvious reason that that requires a normal penis to work with. But the effect was the same. It went slightly awry in my case, and I required surgical excision of lesions on the external structures, and cauterisation of a lesion at the very tip of the neovagina, which was allowed to "close up", shortening depth. I regained it though through dilation, and the rest is nicely mucosal and according to my OB/GYN, quite normal.

Anonymous said...

c00l d00d said...

You said that the skin becomes muscousal. Is there a scientific paper on that?

Hello Cool Dood, is this question to me or to who?

If it was addressed to me then I suggest if you really get sexually excited by reading scientific papers you simply do your own searches in Google or other search engines.

I am not a Sexual-Scientist, nor doing research for some multi-national pharmaceutical giant or a university.

Besides my friend could not care less if there was a scientific paper or not, then for him he only cares if he can have normal sex with me, and that when we do he tries to ensure we both enjoy it.

I also think this is the wrong place to ask such questions, then the thread was actually to do with the death of Duanne Johnson and how Bindalisums and other poor thought out so-called "Expert" journalistic codwhallop and claptrash from people like Bindle, that dehumanize women like Duanne, simply allow others to beat her up or kill her with a smug feeling "the public will accept it after all she is not human!"

I wonder why the interest? If you are a m2f (doubtful if you are using the name Cool Dood) and still pre-op, you can ask your friends and/or doctors... If post op, and already self-lubricating the issue is no issue. If post op, and you do not self-lubricate, you possibly never will, and so the question is lost here "one way or the other" anyhow.

If you are a normal straight male and want normal sex with a normal Trans-woman and already have a TS girlfriend, ask her and follow her advice if and when extra lube may be needed. She might thank you for your thoughtfulness and caring attitude. (which I also do here on her or anyone else's behalf if that is why you really are asking)

If you don't yet have a Girlfriend (even a non-Transwoman one) and hope for sex on first date or second one, then it would pay you to always carry a small tube of lube (even for many natal born women) and condoms in your pockets at all times, so as to be always prepared...

Tip One: don't forget to swap them out when the expiry date (I think maybe about 24 months) expires and you have had no success... lol.

Tip Two: do ensure the Lube used (or carried if you live in hope) is not likely to dissolve the Latex of the Condoms. Not only to ensure you do not contaminate the woman, or she you, if either of you have STDs or do not know each other long enough to know each other's sexual-medical history but also if a natal woman, from getting her pregnant.

Tip Three: A lot of natal women are low self-lubricators and due to dryness experience sex as painful and so try to avoid it. Others get friction burns and some even latex allergies, so there is no simple answers even in the non-TS-woman and Non-IS woman genital interfacing that your next exciting Scientific Paper may address.

Best regards and Closing subject here (i.e. my last post in this thread)

But I will close with a Joke (to show I am not upset with the question in General)

warning a Petra Joke... A post-op transwoman met her surgeon one day some five years after her SRS. The surgeon was quite keen to find out how his work functioned in real life, and having no long-term studies or scientific papers to drool over, decided to ask her to go with him to a restaurant nearby, offering to pay for lunch if she would agree to undertaking a verbal survey. She agreed.

Knowing she was a bit coy about sex, He said was keen to find out how she did job wise since her SRS, discussed income and finances, her working relationship with colleagues, bosses and how she got on (or not) with original pre-transition friends, her family, ex-wife and children, Her elderly parents, etc., living arrangements and so on.

Finally between courses, the surgeon decided it was time to broach the subject of her active sex life and physical relationship.

And so before taking a further mouthful of food he addressed the questions that most interested him:

"I have this crazy guy called Cool Dood who keeps asking strange questions and for scientific papers", the surgeon explained...

"but do not have any, so that is why I am doing this study"...

"How do you feel about sex?"

"do you like sex or feel is it a chore women must do to keep their husbands or boyfriends happy?"

"Is the Depth and width OK?"

"Do you need extra Lube or do you adequately Self-Lubricate?"

"Do you need to -or- still Dilate regularly?"

...and hearing she did not need to dilate any more, asked her "if she thought the sex with her new partner replaced dilation and if so how often she need or liked sex?"

Here he asked her rather hopefully she would not realize this was the only question he actually wanted to know to make his fame with a new scientific paper that he could sell the Cool Dood research institute...

Then slipped a forkfull of food in to ensure that the emphasis was now on her to speak while he ate.

"Well," She said "I'd have to say I like it infrequently," The Surgeon who by now was just starting to chew, while making notes, tried his best to rush his chewing and swallow so he could continue, but nearly choked ... then after he regained his breath and composure he leaned across the Table and asked her, "Was that last answer one word or two?"


Zoe Brain said...

Drink warning next time please, Petra!