Friday, 9 January 2009

On Transsexuality and Transphobia

I should preface all of this by "to the best of our knowledge..." or "the evidence very strongly indicates that..." or similar weasel-words, rather than making flat statements. All I can say is that of the competing theories, this one is the only one consistent with all the observations. Where it has holes, there's plausible mechanisms postulated, and competing theories either have to invoke unique mechanisms found nowhere else in Science to cover their gaps, or more often, just plain ignore them.

OK, so what is transsexuality?

Simply, having a gender identity that differs from societal perceptions of the body's gender.

This definition in terms of "societal perceptions" covers the many cases where the body is Intersexed, or where surgical intervention shortly after birth reverses appearance of natural genitalia, or the various Intersex conditions that give rise to sex-reversal syndromes after birth.

For example, a boy who as the result of a botched circumcision ends up with no penis may be surgically altered to an apparently female form (I can think of 2 cases immediately). If the boy revolts against the outside assignation, he is deemed transsexual. The David Reimer case is well known, but Dr Zucker (that's PhD not MD) intervened in another case, and the patient as the result now identifies as a rather butch bisexual woman with severe difficulties in forming relationships and chronic depression. This Dr Zucker deems a "success", as he states on a video available at Youtube.

OK, so what causes transsexuality, this differing gender identity? How do we know that we are male or female?

We're not completely sure, but Milton Diamond's Biased-Transaction theory is definitely proven for some cases. It may be true for everyone. Basically, hard-wired biasses, propensities, instincts, reflexes, and emotional rather than rational responses follow a BiModal distribution. One pattern peaks in females, the other peaks in males, though it's fuzzy. We "know" that we're boys or girls by comparing ourselves with others. "I do not think like X,Y, and Z. X,Y and Z are girls, so I cannot be a girl". Later, this gets extended to "I think like A, B and C. A. B and C are boys, and I know I can't be a girl, therefore I must be a boy". Such mostly or wholly subconscious comparison is usually reinforced by cues such as similar body appearance, social role, clothing and so on, but when these contradict the emotional and instinctive data, they are ignored.

So what causes these hypothetical biases?

This is one area we now have good, and improving, data on. It's all in the lymbic system of the brain, the hypothalamus and nearby structures. These are strongly sexually dimorphic, one common pattern for males, a quite different one for females. You could even say that this is the area that defines ones sex, rather than chromosomes, bodily appearance etc. For transsexual people, the neuroanatomy is strongly towards one extreme, which is discordant with societal perceptions of their "true" gender. Many people of both sexes are potentially "BiGendered", and could function with various degrees of adequacy in either social role, but perhaps 2/3 of people could not.

How can the lymbic nucleus become inconsistent during gestation?

We don't have a good handle on this. We do know that administration of certain hormonal drugs during pregnancy increases likelihood of Transsexuality 500 times. We know that certain gene sequences are associated with increased rates of transsexuality, with different sequences being involved in Male-To-Female as opposed to Female-to-Male transsexuality. The evidence is consistent with the theory that both one of a number of genetic propensities is needed (and we haven't identified more than a few yet), plus anomalous hormonal environment in the womb. Both circumstances are needed, they are both independant, both quite common and normal, but the combination is relatively rare.

The evidence is summarised in BiGender and the Brain, though as the article is over 6 months old, much of the most recent data that confirms the conclusions in it isn't included.

What is Transphobia?

For very good reasons to do with evolutionary development, anything to do with confusion about gender identity tends to cause instinctive and unreasoning disquiet, discomfort, and even revulsion. This can manifest as bigotry and hatred, but most often results in people "not wanting to think about it", and ignoring the evidence saying "I don't buy this whole woman trapped in a male body stuff". Conversely, because the neuroanatomy is bimodal rather than binary, some people have an instinctive partial understanding of the situation. While not transsexual themselves, they have elements of transsexuality in their psychic makeup, and could probably function reasonably well in an opposite gender role.

Transphobia is a perfectly natural instinctive reaction. But so is Xenophobia, Racism and many other evils. Transphobia and to a lesser extent Homophobia are the result of evolutionary pressures towards increasing chances of procreation. Many such beliefs are rationalised afterwards: the instinctive revulsion comes first. Fortunately, we're rational, and not slaves to our instincts - unless we want to be.


Bad hair days said...

I really like this 101, but I'm not very much into your explenation of transphobia. I have met to many people who had deeply bigotted views, but confronted with one or even more transsexual people, espacially when they seen the changes in a person before and after the second puperty being healed from Transphobia. On the other hand, where the transphobia has origins in ideologies (eg. radical social feminism), religion or even the concept of "true transsexuals" there is no hope. More cultural than evolutionary development I suppose (think of cultures where people we would call trans are integrated, which exist)


sue_ann_robins said...

It's a shame I cannot find any work you have carried out on the subject that demonstrates a level of authority.

Your use of the word "We" implies you are involved in such research and have published work in said filed.

I happen to know better.


Bad hair days said...

Hello Sue :-)

A pleasure to meet you over here.

> I happen to know better

I see.

There was a word about you in my last post (here) ;-)

regards, Sarah

Cathryn said...

Zoe I find it hard to believe you would define "transsexuality" in such a fashion that includes every random crossdresser and drag queen and gender fu**er.

That said, regarding "transphobia" and the comment by Bad is amazing but true that even radical lesbian separatists can "get" transsexuality (as in classic transsexuality) when approached by a woman of trans history without anger or attacks.......I've experienced it several times myself. But then I've turned Repulican lawmarkers into transsexual rights supporters too.

Bad hair days said...

Hello Cathryn.

Thats because her views are based on evidence and expierience and an open ear to the expierience of people not exactly lieing in the definition of Transsexuality like sue gave me today on another blog.

Rather than "true transexualty" dogma.

Thats why I included it on my listing.

I often think, that persons who fight for true transexuality suffer from something. And I have a suspicion. Do they so much try to be the best woman they can imagine that they forget to be themselves? Is that denying of ones self (which would most likely be perfectly female anyway) lead to such simpicistic views and dinial of people who are not exactly like them (e.g. not wanting GRS, beeing Lesbien, liking BDSM and so on)?

I espacially ask Sue and you about that. That is not a try to insult you, but an honest question.

sue_ann_robins said...

What evidence Bad Hair?
Please show us the evidence.


Bad hair days said...

Hello Sue.

I don't know what you ask evidence for. Could you clarify?

I think now it must be evening for you too (and bedtime for me) so have a good evening, as mine was.

Greetings, Sarah

Leigh said...

Bad Hair Days Said:

"I often think, that persons who fight for true transexuality suffer from something"

Your right! .. we suffer from transgenderism...

Bad hair days said...

Hello Leigh

That should be ok, when all is overcome to each persons nead. Just a change in social role, hormones or grs. When it lasts after that, something is still wrong.


Bad hair days said...

Sorry - you mean transgenderism as in people not exactly like you (not a suffering TG people of all kind have in common like was my first purpose)

Well, for that - exactly the same. Your number five today. I think I should be honored, being in the spotlight of such an exclusive club.

I try to clarify my point of view: You people have every right to see your needs served. I just dont get it why you denie the same right to other persons. They bother you. I don't like drag queens pictured on every article about ts myself, but thats not the fault of dqs. The problem lies in a misconceptions of peoples inborn needs. And you people show a lot of disrepect to the - while on the same time demand the exactly same from other people.

To be honest. If you don't get it. That mindset is a big part of the reason.


Stellewriter said...

Okay, Okay! Setting definitions aside and predisposition to any particular belief or political stance, there is one irreconcilable question which may delineate the whole matter. It is this:

“What possible matter or consequence should someone else’s gender or sex have on another and their person?”

The only answer that is relevant is that they themselves, the disturbed Transphobic, likely are as well at odds with their own gender and sexual security. If, for example, I have a dislike for green automobiles, that is my own preference and it has no bearing on anyone else. Moreover, I should logically not give a rip if someone else might endure the color green and drive the axles off of their junk-mobile. Neither should they be disturbed if I don’t happen to have a green thing to waste gasoline upon. Now if I should desire and banter about in a pink sports car, then perhaps the Transphobe’s who are insecure in their own world will be jealous and hateful.

Leigh said...


You should be honored, and I am not going to honor you further by wasting my time trying to explain it to you.

Bad hair days said...


How can you thing I can take a person like you serious?

You place yourselfe so fare above, you cant evenn reach yourself anymore.

Thats just ridicoules. You renember, like that old school "friends" making fun of you.

Sometimes even punish you for feeling "above them"

I want to punish you... I just see how wired that is.


Leigh said...


and to extrapolate further..

Apiphobia- Fear of bees... the person must have a problem with their own bees.

Bibliophobia- Fear of books... the person obviously has a problem with their own books

Chronophobia- Fear of time.... the person has inner issues related to time in their own world.

Dentophobia- Fear of dentists... the person wants to be a dentist and is jealous of all dentists..

shall I go on ?

PHOBIA is fear of something, it doesn't mean that someone has to have any justification in their own body for being phobic.

But it just sounds really cool to say the word .. doesn't it... makes a person feel more secure that it's someone else's fault..

Bad hair days said...


Thats really a funny collection. So you have to have own bees to fear them?

You might go on. As far as I know Zoe likes comment of any kinds.

But I'm happy you point out out your, well point? Relating body to phobics?

If you aint Catkisser on Mercedes blog no one didn't ever accuse you of transphobia. If you, than it would have been a heck of lot easier to understand you.

For the most people the phobia does'nt reflect your funny description. I have a fear of spider, wich is called arachnophobia. But I don't own any? Why the heck should i?

Often people have a fear of hight. They just not own it. They even live in even flours.

Why, what the heck you wnated to say? Theres no logic to it.


Hazumu Osaragi said...


Do you read Steven Pinker? How the Mind Works? The Blank Slate? The Stuff of Thought? (books by Pinker...)

This post has that kind of ring to it -- just the facts, ma'am, and no I-believe-the-world-has-to-work-this-way bull$%!^.

The selfish gene selects for homophobia to increase its chances of propagation.

And there's something intensely arousing about fecundity -- and conversely a revulsion against mating parings that are certain to be barren. Isn't that homo- and trans-phobia in a nutshell?

Anonymous said...

I found this blog at a trans site that banned me
for disagreeing with one or two beloved posters and the admin.

Most of them are just psychopaths. I feel sorry for anyone who is truly bi-gendered or whatever you call it. They won't find help in this crowd of weirdos who are just smart enough to convince you that white is black and black is white but they don't have to live in reality like the rest of us.

Psychopaths...every damn last one of them. No one is feeling sorry for them. They are no better than pedophiles.

Battybattybats said...

Hi all.

I am one of the people who fit somewhere in the 'crossdresser/genderqueer/transgenderists' catagories folk are bandying about. So if you have questions ask away!

Regarding transphobia and evolution... kin selection could easilly support the evolution of homosexuality and TG and a contrary hostility towards such would also be advantageous to a gene in conflict with kin selection within a population.

Does transphobia and/or transacceptance run in families? If not then the existence of TG-friendly cultural traditions would argue that transphobia is cultural not biological.

As for criticism that apiphobics aren't neccessarily scared of their own bees, sure but thats a hair-splitting argument! it may argue for a re-terming or reclassifying of homophobia perhaps
but if data shows that many 'homophobes' get sexually aroused at same-sex erotic images while non-homophobic straights don't then you can't argue against the existence of the data because it doesn't fit the terminology!

"Psychopaths...every damn last one of them. No one is feeling sorry for them. They are no better than pedophiles."

Umm... ok sure there are lots of genuine psychopaths in the population, many in positions of power. Sure with all the injustices many go through TG folk may often suffer mental health issues as a consequence. But 'no better than pedophiles'???


Are the psychopaths directly violating anyones human rights? Are they forcing themselves on people sexually against their wishes causing decades of serious psychological harm? Are they in positions of authority over powerless people unable to get away? I doubt all these.

It takes a lot of harmful wrong to be half as bad as a pedophile!

Some people running a forum people can voluntarily join and leave, where there is no physical contact can't be easilly compared to rapists of children!

Sure they may cause harm through emotional and psychological violence or by knowingly spreading false information but thats not remotely the same as raping children!

Bad hair days said...

What do this self claimed true transaxuals want?

I trie to sum up a view clues I got over the last two days.

1.) Not beeing seen in context of of transgender
2.) putting semselfs above others
3.) lesser or no research and medical help for transgender

While I think point one is a personal thing I have absolutely no repsect for point two. Its the perfect start to bring harm on others, and is actively done so, when point three is formulated.

Not respecting the needs and lifes of transgendered persons is exactly what causes deads. By self harm or by violence from others.

Yuki Choe said...

This is fast becoming a conversation that is getting a bit out of hand. This is my opinion, in which some of you may not agree with, but it is to the best of my knowledge.

- There is no "true transsexuals". There are clinical transsexuals and sub-clinical transsexuals.

- I am a clinical transsexual, but I still belong to an umbrella group called transgender that includes transvestites, femmes, drag kings and dykes.

- There is a difference between sex and gender, in the same way trans-SEX-ual has SEX in it and trans-GENDER has GENDER IN IT.

- No one should judge how anyone should live their lives. I have no more or less right to tell a cross-dresser to stop his hobby, and he has no more or less right to tell me not to get rid of the mutation between my thighs.

- For me, there is still a strong need for equal rights for all transgenders.

As for transphobia, I believe is mostly about mysoginy. All the talk about lesser men or altered men or confused men roles to the highlighted recent rape of a lesbian, shows just that. The innability to see sexuality as something that is innate in an individual regardless of the presentation, and that the gender itself is diversified through many generations across the world to the extent clothes should no longer be an issue.

Transphobics I believe needs to feel the power to control and force people to conform and assimilate what they themselves perceive as normal, even with violence; but failed to see that what they view as unnatural may not be the same for others. But we are enslaved by the "naturalist" force of a large majority.

I would agree with one point from Battybattybats that transphobia still has its strong cultural roots, but for me it is more so in religion. Hindus and Buddhists are far more tolerant, Christian are still forgivable in most countries on their treatment of transsexuals except for that few total bigots. But except for Iran; Muslims would kill and feel vindicated, every transgender they see (and in the same manner they kill homosexuals.)

Yuki Choe said...

"Muslims *would kill"...

Ooops, sorry typo... COULD... there are still many LGBT friendly Muslims in this world though in the face of other Muslims' hate....

Battybattybats said...

" No one should judge how anyone should live their lives. I have no more or less right to tell a cross-dresser to stop his hobby, and he has no more or less right to tell me not to get rid of the mutation between my thighs."

This is a very good point, though I would like to point out that for me certainly and for a great majority of those CDs I have conversed with on or off line it is not a hobby. Instead it is something much more intrinsic to the self.

But even were that not so, were it in fact all a hobby we all have the right to that as part of our basic human rights. The right to self expression covers a CDs gender expression. The right to bodily autonomy gives the TS their right to any and all surgery as is appropriate to them as determined by them!

And the obligation of each of us in order to have our own equal liberty, our rights, is to recognise respect and even defend the rights of others who woulduse them differently to ourselves.

And as such any who strive to improve their own lot while tearing down at the lots of others as disenfranchised as themselves negate their very own claim to an improved lot by negating the reasoning for not misstreating them.. the equality thing.

If it's ok for 'true transsexuals' to call for the misstreatment or inequality of TG folk like me then it is ok for Cis-folk to do so to the 'true transsexuals'! Their own arguments are self-negating!

Cathryn said...

Yuki, you should learn bofore speaking. In Iran transsexuality is supported as a matter of fact. In the US such rabid rightwing christians as Pat Robertson have supported transsexuality.

And that's the key, in both cases and many others it's classic transsexuality that is accepted, NOT "transgender". It is the false flag "education" done by transvestite/transgenders that they are just the same as classic transsxuals that is at the root of the problem transsexuals have with transgenders. Most of us would not give a damn one way or the other about them if they would stop doing this. We have absolutely nothing in common with drag queens, crossdressers etc. We do not "trans" our gender, that is fixed at birth making us cisgendered if you insist on using that ridiculous term. Transsexuality is defined by the need to bring the body in line with central nervous system, mind, however you wish to express it. It has nothing to do with clothes or Bats.

Battybattybats said...

Cathryn, there is a difference between not being 'the same' and being unrelated. And the studies are not done yet on CDs to rule out genetic or neurological variation causations related or unrelated to TS!

Transgender as a word neccessarily includes both Gender Identity and Gender Expression.

The first includes the neurology you mention and the latter is more of the stuff like clothes, mannerisms, cultural aspects etc.

But I think it's worth pointing out that many CDs experiences Gender Identity is not a fixed solid 'male'. Yes there are some like that but they are far from universal and i fear that groups like Tri-Ess with their own exclusionary biases intended to salve the concerns of the wives of CD members may in fact be projecting a very false image of what many crossdressers are like.

If, as Zoe suggests, many people have less fixed GI then this all makes a great deal of sense.

Strongly fixed gender identity conforming to anatomy you get a Cisgender Cissexual.

Strongly fixed gender identity in opposition to anatomy you get a Cisgender Transsexual.

Less fixed gender identity and you get variations depending on degree of strength of fix and degree of conformity or opposition to anatomy.

So extremely light GI conforming to anatomy and you may get a slightly effeminate metrosexual.

Moderate contrary to anatomy and you may get a Transgender Transsexual.

Mild contrary and you get many crossdressers and drag queens again with much variation, from the once-a-month dressers to the full-time but non-ops.

And right down the middle is where GenderQueer fits.

And just as appears to be the case when talking to plenty of people there are lots of individual variations in intensity rather than neat easilly defined catagories.

In which case there are differences between transsexuals and crossdressers sure, and similarities too, and shared issues of law, discrimination and human rights.

Yuki Choe said...

"Yuki, you should learn bofore speaking. In Iran transsexuality is supported as a matter of fact. In the US such rabid rightwing christians as Pat Robertson have supported transsexuality."

Cathryn, (with all due respect) you should read before speaking. I already made those exceptions.

Christian(s-typo) are still forgivable in most countries on their treatment of transsexuals except for that few total bigots. But except for Iran; Muslims could kill and feel vindicated, every transgender they see (and in the same manner they kill homosexuals.)

As for:

"classic transsexuality that is accepted, NOT "transgender". It is the false flag "education" done by transvestite/transgenders"

I know there are some transvestites who try to draw similarities to the point of announcing themselves to having the same conditions as transsexuals. But not all of them are like that. To brand all transvestites as imposing creatures because of a few is unfair to say the least.

And by that quote above, just answer this question, does that mean you disagree with the current medical term?

There are of course notable controversies in whether GID should be a mental condition under DSM-V or not, but the APA had already outlined the flag for us who are gender queer in scientific terms. We both are what you call classic transsexuals, but whether we like it or not, we live by the SEX in trans-SEX-ual and our sexual identity would have to be who we really are as MTF females. Unfortunately, we cannot have periods. We cannot born babies. We can never hide the fact that we may never be boys, but we can only get a large percentage of our womanhood back, and it is not 100%.

That is why we both are under the banner of trans-GENDER. Because gender wise, we will always be different, including all that are under that flag because simply we are gender variant. Or just tell me straight, you do not agree with APA on what you call "false flag":

What does transgender mean?

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from that usually associated with their birth sex. Many transgender people live part-time or full-time as members of the other gender. Broadly speaking, anyone whose identity, appearance, or behavior falls outside of conventional gender norms can be described as transgender. However, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-atypical will identify as a transgender person.

What is the difference between sex and gender?

Sex refers to biological status as male or female. It includes physical attributes such as sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, internal reproductive structures, and external genitalia. Gender is a term that is often used to refer to ways that people act, interact, or feel about themselves, which are associated with boys/men and girls/women. While aspects of biological sex are the same across different cultures, aspects of gender may not be.

What are some categories or types of transgender people?

Transsexuals are transgender people who live or wish to live full time as members of the gender opposite to their birth sex. Biological females who wish to live and be recognized as men are called female-to-male (FTM) transsexuals or transsexual men. Biological males who wish to live and be recognized as women are called male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals or transsexual women. Transsexuals usually seek medical interventions, such as hormones and surgery, to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their preferred gender. The process of transitioning from one gender to the other is called sex reassignment or gender reassignment.

Cross-dressers or transvestites comprise the most numerous transgender group. Cross-dressers wear the clothing of the other sex. They vary in how completely they dress (from one article of clothing to fully cross-dressing) as well as in their motives for doing so. Some cross-dress to express cross-gender feelings or identities; others crossdress for fun, for emotional comfort, or for sexual arousal. The great majority of cross-dressers are biological males, most of whom are sexually attracted to women.

Drag queens and drag kings are, respectively, biological males and females who present part-time as members of the other sex primarily to perform or entertain. Their performances may include singing, lip-syncing, or dancing. Drag performers may or may not identify as transgender. Many drag queens and kings identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

Other categories of transgender people include androgynous, bigendered, and gender queer people. Exact definitions of these terms vary from person to person, but often include a sense of blending or alternating genders. Some people who use these terms to describe themselves see traditional concepts of gender as restrictive.

sue_ann_robins said...

Okay Bad Hair;

What qualifications does Brain have to make Brain an athority on the subject of what Transsexuality is?

What papers has Brain published?

Who has Brain studied under?

Brain isn't any more qualified then any other person.

Leigh said...

A long time ago, in a land far far away, everyone knew their place. Crossdressers went about quietly enjoying their chance to fem it up in the privacy of their homes, drag queens and transvestites visited their favorite gay haunts and strutted their stuff for the enjoyment of the crowd, and transsexuals went quietly about doing their real life tests, keeping their appointments at their psych's office, and quietly integrating as best they could into society and their target gender roles. Everyone acknowledged everyone else's needs and everyone knew the differences that existed between the categories. As time went by and technology started to become a part of everyone's lives, there came a gathering of information and misinformation that started people to explore beyond their bounderies. Suddenly, cross dressing men could now take their roles beyond the privacy of their bedrooms, get connected with other cross dressing males and indulge their wildest fantasies with their new online gender roles, repleat with feminine names that became as real as their actual names and real world personas and roles. Drag queens and transvestites, along with gender benders and other homosexual effeminate men started to gel under the transgender banner of the GLBT and would begin to meld together with the crossdressers who invariably participated in the gay chat rooms and transgender became an umbrella.

All the while, the transsexuals were still going about their lives, quietly doing their obligations under the standards of care and for the most part oblivious to the gathering of the transgender hoards that would seek to assimilate them. The transgender as they were now collectivly calling themselves sought to gain legitimacy of society by shedding their labels like a moth busting from its coccoon and spreading its wings in the sunlight. Many started referring to themselves as Transsexual, seeing no wrong in doing so, and arguing that they were as much entitled to use the term as any true transsexual that was on the path to GRS and fixing their medical birth condition. They became many and they became loud, the transvestites and drag queens taking to the wider stage of television talk shows where the media portrayed them as transsexuals and paraded them across the living rooms of america. The crossdressers started to move beyond the restriction of their homes and families and take their new found liberty onto the streets, bolstered up by each other, forming groups like tri-ess and holding public meetings akin to a car show where each could display to each other their private customizations. Soon the customizations reached out to the doctors offices and with readily available hormones and a good line of informative bullshit, the crossdressing gender men could attain breasts and even forgo all the requirements of the SOC that transsexuals went through, opting to get their customizations in Thailand where the rules are tied to the dollar and not to any real medical need.

For it's part, society in general was horrified. They started to see more and more of the transgender in their everyday lives and were told they should treat them just the same as they did any other woman or man they knew and worked with. Society had known there where transsexuals in the world long before Jerry Springer came along. They had read the stories in the newspapers of the day and had accepted their plight as a medical condition. Transsexuals were few back then, and most people had never met or knew any, but those that did were generally supportive.

Now faced with this new breed of transgender, sprung from the loins of the homosexual set, the public lost all sight of what they once knew and started to assume all were the same. The louder the transgender shouted, the more they were despised.

Somewhere in amongst all this, the true transsexuals were still going about their business, doing their RLT and getting their letters. But now they were finding it harder. The public no longer understood them and they started bringing in laws to block their marriages in their new gender. They proposed laws that would make it hard for transsexuals to enter the workplace and use the public bathrooms of their chosen gender. They even shunned their very existance and kept them form successfully integrating into their target gender. The backlash had begun and transsexuals were now targets of a public that had lost patience with it all.

The Enough Nonsence blog was started to by post operative transsexuals that had had enough of the transgender nonsence that sought to assimilate all transsexuals under the homosexual banner. We are not elitists, nor are we homophobic or transphobic, we are just angry that we are now seen in a differnt and less flattering light than we once where. Our mission is to speak out, however hurtful that may seem to the transgender. Our mission is to take back the transsexual term by differentiating the term from those that would seek to use it with claims that they are the same. They are not the same, and we will not go quietly into the night and be assimilated. It has gone on too long and it has to stop.

Yuki Choe said...

Sue Ann Robins,

Brain had been there and done that.

Brain always back up all her views with all of the latest peer-previewed research and studies.

Brain is a rocket scientist, she would know more about science then most people like us will know.

She is not the ultimate authority, but I can vouch that she is definitely a more than qualified authority on transsexuality than most of us commenting here. >.<

sue_ann_robins said...

Brain might be as you put it a rocket scientist however expertise in one field doesn't automatically entitle the label of "Expert" in another field, not even a related field.

Her arrogance is what I object to pawning off opinion as fact.

Yuki Choe said...

Leigh, as much as I agree that transvestites are bad misrepresentations of us transsexuals, but there must be a better way than trying to mislabel them as THE "transgenders" when we are too then force them to conform to their places under the rolling bus.

Why not we affirm our own community, and educate the people around us on the differences?

We already have separate alphebets in TS and TV; this is shallow, but since we are heading that direction why not we just put everyone in these boxes of alphies?

The education should come to the media, and with it regulations, and with it proper segregation. Transvestites/crossdressers should have resources and spaces of their own and so should we. But it is the media that depicts us all as MAN in DRESSES, not transvestites. And we transsexuals get the worse brunt of violence being deceivers who caused panic attacks, at the same breath with cross-dressers who get gunned down. That is why every Nov we have the TRANSGENDER Day of remembrance, that includes ALL of us.

Instead of burning bridges, why not we all just sit down and discuss together ways to work towards civil equality (in fairness of course), and to voice out all our concerns than find solutions? If we transsexuals are so CISS-ed we should be smart to do problem solving, are we not? We may be different species, but we are on the same boat whether we like it or not. Please, we need more allies, not more enemies.

And mind you Leigh, as far as we wish to run from the word "transgender", as I mentioned in an earlier comment, it is already a term coined by most medical professionals. If you wish to use the word transsexual so much (which still is classified as a mental disorder), then go ahead. But please do not stuff everyone's mouths with revised definitions without any real authority from extreme transsexual separatists.

By the way, just say that you disagree with the current layed out correct medical terms
. Then you can also disagree that it is super humid wet season in Nothern Australia even though you never been there while the weatherman says yes it is the wet season and we can have a good laugh about it. :-)

leigh said...

Been where and done WHAT .. exactly ?

I am relieved that brain is a rocket scientist though .. now I feel MUCH better!

Yuki Choe said...

Brain might be as you put it a rocket scientist however expertise in one field doesn't automatically entitle the label of "Expert" in another field, not even a related field.


Whenever she gives her opinions, she backed it up with proper authorative research and studies, as I had mentioned to you. So why would you have problems with it?

Yuki Choe said...

I feel this is a sad situation. We all can have the last word but in the end we are all going to burn unless we come to a common ground.

The blaming game must stop, and we must focus on the real people who hurt us. We are supposed to be looking and affirming everything outwards, not regressing on back inwards to our own prejudices. >.<

leigh said...


if you want to call yourself transgendered go right ahead. The term is derogatory to most classic transsexuals. I have no wish to sit down and work together with those that have stolen our identities for their own selfish use. It is the transgender and the GLBT that need to make the distinction of not including transsexuals in their umbrella without our permission or affording us the right to complain about it.

Cathryn said...

Yuki.......yes, I would disagree strongly with the APA you linked to, they are NOT doctors, the American Psychiatric Association is another ball of wax. You know, the ones who defined the term MEDICALLY under the DSM.

And given that my definition of transsexual was the one in general use for more than thirty years, my version was the top search engine one from the mid ninties on for years prior to all the transvestite vanity pages and most of the women of transsexual history who have commented here have lived as women for more than a decade or longer as women.....I should think we'd have a say in this.

"Transgender" was coined by a rabidly transsexual hating full time crossdresser. The term is considered a deadly insult to most of us. In 12-15 years of face to face encounters with actual transsexual women numbering in the hundreds, every single one felt the same way about the term transgender applied to us.

Bats, as you well know, there is NO evidence at all of your position and I personally find you placing yourself in a similar category to me insulting in the extreme.

Yuki Choe said...

I did not call myself anything but a transsexual. And I see that you already disagreed with the current medical consensus I had mentioned.

Perhaps there is a need to add another alphabet to the LGBT. What do you suggest? LGBTT? LGBTSTV? Labels are really shallow but if it makes you happy well, so be it.

I too like you, am a Transsexual I just wish there is more to my existence than just an alphabet. Maybe because the culture here is so different and there is no real semblance of a community, that I do not feel TVs or CDs intruding into my space.

But I do hope someday unity would happen, and we would all be recognized not by labels, but by an H, for Humans. Perhaps you feel the need to get back that label, Leigh and Cathryn. But I have not seen any harm done to me by others in the TG community. And I am a person of goodwill and friendship for all. And I still believe we all should be one.

Cathryn said...

I would further observe that those who transition to transsexual rather than to a regular woman (or man) have actually failed their RLT just as observed by SA-ET on her blog. I'd further speculate that those who claim to be of transsexual history who embrace "transgender" are probably right about the second part and mistaken in the first. Just like all the "full time" transsexuals I met on the internet years ago who, when you met them in person, were weekend women only and not ready for full time players. I have a recent blog entry up myself at addressing the issue of delusional thinking among transgenders.

For the most part I respect Zoe, on this issue we are totally opposed. As for access to best minds on the subject, my dearest friend happens to be at the top of the psychiatic profession and we talk daily, often on these very matters. She and I are in complete agreement.

Cathryn said...

Yuki, as a matter of fact, I am not a transsexual although I believed most of my life I was. It turns out I was born intersexed, a true hermaphrodite who was surgically altered at birth.

At any rate my identity is WOMAN....not intersexual, not transsexual.

I've said my piece here.......

sue_ann_robins said...

Brain has not sighted anything to back what she has said in this blog entry.
It is all opinion under the color of authority.

That is arrogant and I find it offensive.

As for your alphibet;
I want nothing to do with the Queers or their ilk.

There are no people who as you put it hurt me.
I get on just fine in mainstream society and have Never been discriminated on the basis of (as the Kool-Aid guzzlers put it) my gender identity or expression ether pre or postoperative.

I don't any activism from the homosexual extremists.

I don't need any "help" from transgenders homosexual or otherwise.

I don't want anything to do with those people.
I sure as I am breathing don't want any of those people from the margins of society speaking for me.

Not now


Yuki Choe said...

The go live in your own box. As long as it makes you happy staying there. No one is perfect, but we have only one life to fill with perfect moments. My fight is for all including you, even if you exclude yourself and some parts of the LGBT excludes me. Perhaps someday we will all find comfort at the middle of the bridge. Until then, let us live and let live.

sue_ann_robins said...

My box as you call it is the whole of mainstream society.

The transgenders who live in their little ghetto are anti-social by their very nature.

They have no desire to live in society on society's terms. Just about all of us who are of operative history do. Most of us have dropped any labial that is a "trans" derivation.

It's not us who live in a box it is the GLBT-Queers.


Cathryn said... fight is against you and will continue to be so until you stop linking those born with a neurological intersexed condition who seek to correct their bodies with those who are, frankly, acting out fetishistic origin sexual deviance. Women do not have penises and if born with them, they move heaven and earth to be rid of them. A female neurology will ALWAYS eventually reject a male anatomy, it's that simple.

As for "real harm".......I could write a book just on the terrorist tactics used by your precious transgenders/transvestites against me over the years, many life threatening. And I used to support the position you are taking. You'll learn if you ever make it to womanhood instead of trannyhood.

There is no "middle of the bridge", it's war and the transgenders declared it on us.

Yuki Choe said...

the whole of mainstream society is also my box, where I work and hang out; but I do venture to make sure I look outside the box to see what is going on. In my years on RLT, I still choose to reveal myself on dates to not be looked at as some sort of deceiver. I still help out back in the community because I believe there is a need to be united as an entity. And that is what makes me, a person in reality.

Both of you, like me, can only identify as a woman, but can never be 100% as one. As I said, you can never give birth, never have periods, in fact I encourage you to continue hiding until you feel the very brunt of being outed, as I had hazardously. If you do not accept this fact then there is nothing I can say but it is the reality of the world that will judge you, not me. You go on and fight your war. I will go on the quest for peace for the community.

Cathryn said...

Sweet Jumping Jebus on a popcycle stick.....can you read?

First, in my particular case, my genetics are actually some tissues XX some XY and I did have periods that almost killed me in puberty due to my labia being sewn shut at birth (bloodposioning)

Second, if you do not feel you are a woman than you are a deceiver. The women of transsexual history I know are women. A woman is more than reproductive ability and on behalf of all my PCOS women friends and Sister Crones.......go screw yourself.

You damn transgenders always go here don't you? Sometimes you are totally wrong.

Yuki Choe said...

OHHH THAT SOUNDS SO DRAMATIC. I have been very patient and tolerant of you Cathryn, and since you want to go Jeepers Beepers Ad Hominems on me, than please go screw yourself, because that would most probably be your destiny because you cannot erase a past that you lived as a boy, and are recognized as a boy and you even have to change your identifications, so screw yourself because you would hardly find a decent man who would want a transgender (YES, GIRL, TRANSGENDER) like you unless they happen to be bisexual gay men, but of course you know so much you do not even need to know about the separation of sexual orientation and sexual identity, do you?

You can also screw youself for not even apologizing for your first comment on me where you condenscendingly think I have much to learn when it is you who do not know how to read, but nevermind, you just made yourself a poor poor laughing stock, like the rest of you transgenders (yes, TRANSGENDERS) want to own the label transsexuals. Well go ahead, and suit yourself because you will forever be TRANSGENDERS whether you like it or not. And like I said you better beware you are never outed because once you are, you will be in the same level of scrutiny just as any TRANSGENDER LIKE YOU face. Goodness, you may even lose your job at best, and at WORST, MURDERED!

Go ahead with your justifications on why you are oh-so women. Go on and squeeze the juice out of your balls for practise because that is going to be how close you are at being a true women. I am so proud that I am more of a transsexual than you can ever be one. Anyhow, if you are so WOMAN, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING IN THESE SPACES? Why not seek a cissexual page somewhere and discuss how to wear a bra or even how to do it with men or which buys are the best?

Nah, you just have nothing to back up your words that you are OH so PURE pure WOMAN except you say you are, is it not, Cathryn? More than 36,000 medical professionals, mostly psychiatrists, who are part of the largest association of psychiatrists in the world calls you A TRANSGENDER. So where is your so-called fact that you are a woman, dear? And since you are "intesexed", that makes you even more half of a boy, does it not? Oh, I am reading very clearly, enough to know it is a complete waste of time to argue from such uneducated, dogmatic and uninformed thinking from a person with such lunacy like you. So go ahead and screw yourself. I will still be fighting for your rights though, so-called woman intersexed boy Cathryn whatever, because it is so unfortunate for me that you are very much gender variant too.

Yuki Choe said...

There... now for some sense... live and let it be. I wish Cathryn would have more manners and sense like Sue Ann. I think seriously if stereotypes are to go by, Sue Ann has conducted herself more as a woman, one that talks when she needs to and thinks before speaking. See how ad hominem attacks like Cathryn's above only begets violence to her. No wonder she got hurt, then blame everyone around her. I fear for her now. Of course she would reply and reply but unfortunately in the end, she has nothing to go on but she says so. So I am going to let her be childish and impose her last words down everyone's throats because she oh so needs to be a WOMAN. I already sealed the facts to the stone and I rest my case. >.<

sue_ann_robins said...

Before you decide to use me as a tool to further your own position against Cathryn, you should know I support everything she says.
There is no reason for me to restate a position I clearly agree with.

My dog in this fight centers around something far more basic then what you and Cathryn are discussing.

I just don't like a Know-It-All who uses his / her knowledge in one field to prop up an opinion in another field by cloaking it in an air of authority, when none exists.

Frankly I don't give a Rat's Output Port if Zoe consulted on a couple of legacy missions that JPL launched well before Zoe waqs borne. That has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand and Zoe likes to cloak whatever her opinion happens to be in this misplaced authority.

Zoe should sell cars because Zoe obviously has a few here snowed.


sumptos devil s advocate said...

It's fun watching transsexuals fight their way to the top of their totem pole, not!!

Zoe Brain said...

It might be useful to repeat what's on the comment form:

Commenters are expected to be polite to each other, but the same standard doesn't apply to comments regarding me.

I expect some apologies now (though not to me). Not for what was said, or the opinions expressed, but for the disrespectful language, even if provoked.

You're all better than that.

Battybattybats said...

Lot of comment about crossdressers this and crossdressers that. Try actually asking! Rather than telling us what we are and what we should do.

The greatest proportion of crossdressers are entirely absent from the Transgender movement. Partly because groups like Tri-Ess actively discourage such with the same irrational arguments. Their deliberate exclusions and marginalisations of any open bisexuality in their membership is part of a distorting of genuine sexuality proportions (though I do find that amongst the cis 'straight' crowd where bisexuality would seem to in fact be the norm and exclusive heterosexuality a fairly rare thing).

The CD community is largely trapped by fear. Fears TSs have to face whether they like it or not but having the capacity to avoid it most CDs do so, and are largely encouraged to by those who do not want to risk backlashes etc!

It has minority elements of homophobia, occassional misogyny (which I often also note amngst the wives of CDs! as well as amongst natal women), a degree of women-idolisation that reaches the point where no TG person can be the equivalent of a natal woman ever and where natal womens needs, opinions and acceptance are held to an obssessive regard, transphobia of other forms of transgender and internalised transphobia too.

There are quite a few of us challenging these issues however.

Most crossdressers are neither loud nor open nor out in any way. I'd say maybe 1 in every 100 or so going by those on forums have ever been outside their front door crossdressed.

And of those who are out they are reporting increased aceptance from society around them not the increased hate that Leigh is reporting. Probably because most of those who are on such forums are white and middle class and because as already quite scared of retribution and having the option of hiding as harmful as that is those who are out tend to be so in safer places whereas transexuals especially the black transsexuals are being thoroughly slaughtered at present have no such option. That suggests that acceptance is very much regional and community based and therfore not directly attributable to the out openness of CDs. In fact the open CDs are more numerous in the places where it is safer and more accepting, not more hostile!

There are many many many conservative CDs who dress to pass as well as possible, the outlandish dressers are very much the minority and substantially stigmatised by many amongst the conservative dressers for making the community look bad etc etc. In fact many conservative CDs especially the apologists for Tri-Ess and it's exclusionary practices revile the notion of Transgender and being associated with TSs! They often use the same arguments, the very exact same arguments as Leigh but inverted!

Three I've been arguing with this week blame the rise in visibility of 'sex-changers' for the loss of their own acceptance and for everyone believing they will have SRS! And for being stigmatised by the lack of acceptance of TSs and how years ago they had so much more acceptance blah blah blah.

The 'classic TSs' and the conservative Tri-Ess CDs are singing from the smae hymnbook but with a couple of words swapped over!

Cathryn: "Bats, as you well know, there is NO evidence at all of your position and I personally find you placing yourself in a similar category to me insulting in the extreme."

And as you well know science works by dissproving hypotheses not by proving them. Absence of evidence because no-one has actually tested for it is sure not evidence of absence!

And your being insulted by an hypothesis (note the IF-THEN statements if you please) or by an unavoidable meaning of a word (Trans means to change, go beyond as well as others and gender can mean classification and recognition pertaining to sex so merely to change your 'official' designation to that which you always should have belonged to does by literal understanding of the root words of the term make you transgender. Don't like that? Take it up with the linguists! You can change the official medical term but not remove the words of all their meaning. Try seeing if another language will help you but in English that remains inevitably one form of meaning of the word!) is hardly rational.

You and I belong to the same species. So we will always share at least that classification and there's nothing you or I can currently do about that!

sue_ann_robins: "My box as you call it is the whole of mainstream society.

The transgenders who live in their little ghetto are anti-social by their very nature.

They have no desire to live in society on society's terms. Just about all of us who are of operative history do. Most of us have dropped any labial that is a "trans" derivation. "

How little you understand of human society! I'm not anti-social. They used to call Goths anti-social and indeed we did not conform to oppressive unneccessary and irrelevant rules that you call to "live in society on society's terms".

Now go to youtube and watch some Ruby Gloom or NCIS and see how Goth is becoming part of mainstream society.

I'm doing the same thing as a CD/GQ/whatever term suits that I did as a Goth.

Defying stupid evil rules of a society that cannot reconcile it's repressive injustices with the enlightenment ideals it is supposedly based on and so it ignores it's inconsistencies, by defying those rules I make those inconcsistencies plain, slowly educating those around me and defending everyone's freedom to look, dress, act, identify and be however they wish so long as it is ethical!

You see, no matter how wierdly someone wants to present themselves, from Tokyo shopping district fashions to extreme body-modifications it is their human right to do so! It harms none for them to do so!

If one persons free and fair use of decorations on their own body or changes to their own body prompts a second person to judge a third person unfairly and unjustly IT IS NOT THE FIRST PERSONS FREE EXPRESSION THAT IS AT FAULT BUT THE SECOND PERSONS WRONG IN JUDGING THEM FOR IT!

Ponder that solidly because it is a logical truth. It matters not if we are discussing religion, culture, race, sex, sexuality or subcultures!

Person 1 could be an Emo person 2 a rockabilly and person 3 a Goth.

Person 1 could be a muslim person 2 a protestant and person 3 a coptic christian.

Get it now? Cause it really truly is that simple! In all these cases person 1 and 3 arguing with each other is, to be blunt nonsensical.

Because the problem is the failure of person 2 to understand that their own freedom depends on respecting the freedom of both person 1 and 2. And if person 2 blames person 1 they too are failing to understand this making them IDENTICALLY WRONG IN THE VERY SAME ERROR as person 2.

This is basic logic people, it doesn't take a 'gifted' Intellect to follow this.

And if you dissmiss the principles of Equality and Liberty that makes this so then you lose any recourse to justification to rights of your own, might then makes right and suddenly all the wrongs against you and your preferred grouping suddenly are acceptable!

So ponder that solidly! That your right to be who you are and express yourself as you see fit is dependant on your recognition of my right to be who i am and my self-expression! Not just freedom of speech but of dress, of self-identification, of body modification etc!

leigh said...

Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig :)

Done with this....

Zoe Brain said...

Leigh, your post a long time ago in a land far far away.., although it contained some significant simplifications and a few areas I completely disagree with, is in the main true.

Things have gotten worse for TS people. Rights initially granted have been withdrawn, especially in the area of marriage.

In some places. Mostly in the more religiously zealous parts of the USA.

In others, they were never given in the first place, and instead of the past being a "Golden Era" (as it was in some places, granted), the persecution was far worse. Torture (sorry, "aversion therapy") and reduction of the person to a drooling moron via involuntary Neurosurgery.

Mileage varied.

15 years ago, here in Australia, the slightest hint of lesbianism or bisexuality meant an absolute prohibition on surgery. 20 years ago, anyone not guaranteed to be petite and a caricature of classical femininity was likewise excluded. Women were forced to abandon careers in the Law, Medicine, Finance and Science in favour of more "gender appropriate" jobs. Hairdressing, Cosmetics, Secretarial work and the like. And all were forbidden any future contact with family.

At age 10, I knew I was never going to be "petite". Even before the time of puberty, I would have been told to, in essence, go away and die quietly. As many did.

Such exclusions still happen, but are now comparatively rare.

Nonetheless, your post contains much truth. I don't think your analysis of the cause is accurate though. I think the increasing move towards the poles in Religion, a rising Fundamentalism with decreased tolerance for anything out of the ordinary and obvious is to be blamed more, especially in the USA and the Arab world, where rights have retreated furthest.

This confusion based on taking pride in Ignorance has reached its pinnacle in Iran, where no distinction is made between effeminate gay men and transsexual women. All must have SRS or be killed, in order to achieve absolute conformity. SRS is free (though the quality leaves something to be desired - women are supposed to be property, objects to pleasure men, that's all). But it's also compulsory for anyone "transgressing gender norms", not just women. They are surgically inducing transsexuality in gay men as the result.

sue_ann_robins said...

All of this talk of freedom of expression.
Lets keep in mind that freedom is a two edged sward . With that said, there is no law against what Michael Savage (Michael Werner a noted author of gay pornography.) has to say about transgender people, I even agree with what he says for the most part.

If you battybattybats or anybody else here is going to hold their right to express themselves how they wish then I uphold the right of anybody to call you or anyone else a freak . To use your right to express yourself however yo uwish rather it is to put safety pins through your cheek, wear pasty white makup or get breast inplants and act like a man, you had better be ready for the rest of society to judge you, because they and I have that right.

And if you don't like it that is too bad, don't go hinding behind the skirt of political correctness and expect anybody to feel sorry for you.

You can find sympathy in the dictionary between Shit and syphilis.

I am tired of the all whining from the sissyes.


Yuki Choe said...

Sue: I already know that you agree with Cathryn, and I am not using you in anyway to strengthen any position. I am giving you a complement because amongst all the words thrown out you tried to remain sensible. If you do not like complements I can always take it back.

Zoe: Yes, I would apologize for the language used here by me in one comment post, even though I already stated in the next comment post that just as Cathryn shown, abusive and provocative language just do not do justice in any decent dialogue, and that Cathryn seems to me just wanting to have the last word and shut everyone up. So I apologize only because you asked me to, Zoe. And still I will refuse to answer Cathryn until she learns to STOP using such words like S-Y-S and utilize ad hominem attacks on people.

I find it unfortunate that transgender people that wishes to own the title transsexual (or whatever a certain intersexed wants to call it), and believe they have the God given right and think they are actually "wise" enough to pressume who is transgender and who is not.

And again, these acts to separate and segregate by some transgenders who do not wish to be identified as transgenders, is saddening. In the end, there is a secret behind the skirts of any transgender individual. If we were to delude ourselves from that, then we will just be lying to ourselves until we believe in our own lies; and those separatists who longs to seek attention and acceptance from a society that they so crave to be part of, will eventually be the worst representation of even transsexuality when their status is outed.

People only want what validates their own sense of self. But they never realise when they seek to invalidate others, they are invalidating every single thing that are dearest to themselves.

leigh said...


Thankyou. Yes it is simplified of course and there are many generalisations, but that was done mostly to try to keep it short and concise.

The reason for writing it was that it seemed to me that some of your readers really seem to have this idea that we are just angry nasty old bitches with an elitist attitude come to preach down on the poor transgenders. It seems that they really have no idea what we are trying to accomplish. I have found that particularily true of younger people who don't have the first hand experience of what it meant to be transsexual in the 60's and 70's. They seem to have this idea that society have always been against us, have always discriminated against us and always shunned us, when in truth that was not the case at all. Back then, and I was there, we were a class all of own. I remember back to a time when I was working as a waitress in a fancy residential hotel for elderly jewish people. The management and staff could not have been more supportive of me, and even some of the residents there went above and beyond to see that I was ok. I was not terribly passable back then and even though I didn't make a habit of telling people my business, my transition status was known. I was promoted to head waitress in a few short months, with no prior experience in the field, and over some women and men that had been there longer, but none of them treated me with disdain for it. People genuinly cared and befriended me and helped me out with anything I asked for. Now I must add that those people were all mainstream folks, many had families, and one family in particular even had me come stay with them for a few months when I couldn't find an apartment.

To hear it today, well it seems we have all taken a giant leap backward, and yes the rise in religious fundamentalism and political correctness had something to do with it, but if I had to put a timeline on when it all started to go to hell in a handbasket, it would be the early 90's and coincides with the rise of social networking via the internet. So that is where I place the problem and even though you may not agree, which is your right to do, that is the way I see it.

now I really am done .. :)

Battybattybats said...

sue_ann_robins, law and rights are different things. And freedom is bordered by the freedom of others and pedicated upon it.

So in fact your right to call me a freak requires you to actually respect me for being a freak. You don't get that already I can tell.

But you see to fairly have and excercise any ethical freedom yourself you have to respect recognise and in fact even defend others freedom, otherwise you invalidate your own freedom. This is the consequence of the equality part that goes along with the liberty.

There is no hiding behind political correctness, merely comprehension of a logical truth.

Liberty without any borders is not equal. The freedom to punch example shows that natural barriers exist when everyone is equall in their degree of freedom. Once you add the equality you do not have anarchy, nor much restriction. You merely need informed consent when you touch someone else.

When you understand that fully then you'll get all my points thus far.

Society tried to judge me and the rest of us Goths. The judgement was invalid, without merit. We judged society and we indeed found it wanting! We defied it and now in much of the world we have won.

Because we are right. Individual ethical freedom is valid, judging others for excercising said as you have the power to do is illogical, irrational, unethical and harmful to society.

I am not whining, nor asking for sympathy. I am explaining.

Explaining that i am not backing down, hiding, going away, slinking off nor any of the things you may wish of me. I have the power of logic and reason and philosophy on my side which shows me right and you wrong in this particular. I have the experience of defying injustice and winning on my side.

Now you have several choices.

You can seek to understand what I'm saying and I'm confidant you'll end up on my side once you comprehend.

You can seek to critique my views which, while largely correct can always do with review and reevaluation in which case you will only help me by doing so as my arguments will become more tight, more concise and better explained to others.

Or you can call me freak all you want and weep at our advances. Where even were I to die in my endeavors others will follow. This is because the reasoning behind equality for the races and the sexes and religions is the same reasoning for Goths and crossdressers et al. All are ethical, oppossing them unethical.

And anyone capable of understanding rational thinking is capable of comprehending this. It's only philosophy after all... The enlightenment was centuries ago but the struggle to actually realise it fully is ongoing because of people unwilling to think i through who oppose it a bit at a time.

But to oppose it's principles is to invalidate all that you have gained by it. Would you rather women were chattel, owned by men who themselves are serfs under kings and of course slavery returned? No? Wouldn't like to be at the bottom of that heap? But those things were wrong because of the same reasons that opposing those like me is wrong!

So call me a freak all you like. When most of the pedophiles and mass-murderers are the 'normal' seeming folk its no insult.

I do not want nor need your permission or approval or sympathy.

In fact your opposition strengthens me, motivates me, assists me.

I will speak logic to illogic. I will defy unjust rules. I will reform unfair systems. I will defend those in need of defending whether it serves my self interests or makes my own struggle more difficult.

Call me freak all you like. The kids who spat on me at school did and they lost as I'm still here, still a goth, still not 'a man'. The ones who tried to stab me and run me down.. they lost too.

So I'll sit back and watch Ruby Gloom. I'll go to the cinema and watch Twilight in my black lipstick etc.

And you and your erroneous irrational judgement will not stop me.

Because being a freak is actually a good thing. While being irrationally judgemental like you is not.

And every day, with every compliment i get on my nails and make-up and jewelry and every warm smile I get as I enter a store and every friend I meet for coffee in the mall is you losing again and me winning again.

Yuki Choe said...

Leigh, in my humble opinion, I would attribute it to the ex-gay movement with their pure dogmatic views. I could, maybe, also be attributed to more and more of us coming out, that caused more and more transphobics trying to shut us up. The media and their potrayal of transgenders is not helping. And it happens everywhere in the world, even in my country.

leigh said...

ok... couldn't pass this one up..

battybats speaks with the power of logic to sue who is illogical to batty ...

now, my husband (yes yuki, some of us, many in fact do transition and do find straight men to marry, sorry to bust your bubble there) but I digress, my husband consistantly finds me to illogical, as he does most females, and that is the entire point here .. batty, your a man arguing with a woman .. hello ? anyone home ?


Zoe Brain said...

sue_ann_robins : I'm entirely self-taught. I have no qualifications in biology, medicine, or psychology. None. Zero. Zip.

My qualifications, such as they are, are in almost completely unrelated areas. The only area of overlap is in the field of AI (artificial intelligence), which involved study of neuro-anatomy and Cognitive Science. "How we think" from a mechanistic viewpoint. The connection with psychology is tenuous at best. Worse, due to my total denial of my situation, one of the symptoms of the mild psychosis I had on the issue was an inability to perceive any data on sexually-dimorphic neurology. If I had have been able to perceive it, I would have thought Forbidden Thoughts which would have meant the whole male facade come crashing down. As it did in 2005. I had to believe in the Bindel-like theory that there was no essential difference in the thoughts and feelings of men and women, because my feelings were the same as my girlfriends'. I was a man, I had to be a man, because if I wasn't, my life would have been utterly unbearable.

It was a mild psychosis that kept me alive, (relatively) sane, (relatively) happy, and able to function in the only way I thought was possible for me.

It got better though, and with it came an ability to perceive what I couldn't see before.

When it comes to Intersex and Transsex issues, they're not exactly Rocket Science. I mean that literally in this case. Oh, they're hard and perplexing, but not, you know, apogees and perigees and specific impulses. Knowledge in that area is not relevant.

Being a Rocket Scientist means I'm relatively intelligent. But there are hundreds of Highly Intelligent idiots out there, who may know all there is to know about Periclean Athens, but whose pronouncements on Climate Change are so much poppicock.

I claim no authority from my qualifications. If I write a summary of conclusions, they're merely conclusions you will find elsewhere on my blog. Conclusions elsewhere, where I give the medical and scientific evidence, then expose the chain of thought that leads me to those conclusions so anyone can analyse and criticise my logic in coming to those conclusions.

So why are my conclusions any more credible than, say, FocusOnTheFamily, or mere personal opinion? How can you know that, and (and this is more important from my own viewpoint I'm afraid), how can *I* know that?

Well, the experts, those who do have the qualifications and who do specialise in the area seem to think I'm worth listening to.

I've been invited by a Professor of Psychology to speak to Medical students on the issue. I've been invited by an Associate Professor of Biology to speak to Psychology students likewise. (It's called cross-disciplinary research, they're big on that here at the Australian National University).

I've given talks to a variety of Humanities students on the issues, by invitation of a Professor at the University of Western Sydney, but that doesn't really count - it was on Human Rights rather than the Science.

Perhaps you should ask "Ronnie" Drantz (Dr Veronica Drantz to give her full title), a specialist biological researcher in the area. Or Professor M.Italiano of Organisation Intersex International, who has sent me advance copies of articles. I don't claim to have taught either of these luminaries anything, but they've certainly taught me a lot. And maybe they've gotten something out of our correspondence too, other than the warm glow any teacher gets from an apt student.

It's no accident that my article BiGender and the Brain made it into a "best of" collection of medical blogging. And that time, it was hosted by, and contents selected by, three practising psychiatrists. It made it into a "best of" collection on Neuroanatomy too, but I don't know the qualifications of those who selected the content for that.

Now I may be wrong on any or all of a number of issues. I'm certainly on the look-out for data which contradicts my ideas. I've already changed my mind on a number of issues, because when facts come in that contradict my notions, I change my opinion, even if it means abandoning cherished beliefs.

I used to believe in a strict binary model for gender, a hard division between TS women and TG men just pretending. Well there is a very real division, but it's not hard, it's squishy and kinda fuzzy.

We can all agree that someone who is 0.8 metres high is short, and someone 2.2 metres high is tall. But where is the tight, hard boundary that divides all people into "tall" and "short" with everyone either one or the other?

We can all agree in the reality that there are White Americans and Black Americans. The descendants of the enslaved, and the descendants of the slave-owners and Abolitionists too.

But where do Korean Americans fit? Or Cherokee (some descended from slave-owners, some descended from slaves)?

Is Barrack Obama a "Black American"? His mother was American, but White. His father was Black, and hailed from a British Crown Colony, now Kenya. He was born in America, so is American, but is he most accurately described as a Black American, a British American, or an African American?

It's not always so simple, Usually, yes. But sometimes it's not just Black and White.

Yuki Choe said...

What Leigh, are you trying to imply here, duh?! I am making the point again and again, transsexuals will never be 100% woman. Says who. Says your sex. Says science. Says identity. Says gender roles. Heck, I was married to a man too! (Looks like your bubble bursted too) Heck my gender role is almost 100% woman too, but it still that.. almost. Does that make me more or less a bisexual? No. Does that make me more or less a woman? No. Am I a girl? Yes. That is enough for me.

I am not in the delusional thinking that I am 100% a woman. If you wish to have this thinking, fine, go ahead and parrot it in your cage. But do not EVER attempt to tell me who I am or what I want in my life, or as the matter of fact, anyone elses. You live your live and I live mine, and we all live ours; so go ahead and think that you are so assimilated (but in the end still assimilated).

I do not need to assimilate myself to already know that I am almost a woman. Neither do I tear up everyone's lives that do not conform to mine and blame this and that and some shadow when people are transphobic. That makes me a NICE PERSON. And that makes me happy.

Battybattybats said...

"ok... couldn't pass this one up..

battybats speaks with the power of logic to sue who is illogical to batty ... "

You know I am actually still here, you can address me directly.

Just because you hold an illogical opinion does not mean you are incapable of learning logic if you don't know it or of reassessing your views through logic if you do but failed to in this case.

And it isn't a matter of being illogical 'to me'. Logic is not nearly so relative! 2 + 2 = 4 not 5 irrespective of peoples opinions on the matter or who is doing the counting, they may misscount certainly or not understand arithmatic but 2 + 2 = 4 not 5 regardless of that.

So either the precepts are wrong or the reasoning is wrong either of which may make the conclusion wrong. Or they are not. And like counting things out on ones fingers or paper anyone barring substantial cognitive issues can check that.

Cathryn said...

Wow, what an apology....."since Zoe made me".
Yuki, you revealed more information about yourself with your little psychotic outburst than you realize. You see, I was trained in psychology and sociology and worked in psychiatry with the clinically insane. I'd advise you not to get surgery, you'll be a regretor, and to avoid long term intimate relationships until you get your rage and abusive nature under control.

In two back to back posts you demonstrated almost every textbook male abuser pattern. You told me you are a non/perpetual pre op. That you are quite conflicted about your sexuality and will almost certainly never make an adjustment to living as a woman particularly with a man. You will most likely explode reading this as well but might have just enough self control not to respond while the red rage overcomes you.

I know your type, been victim of your type, helped other women deal with the aftermath of relationships with your type. You are right about one thing, YOU will never be a real woman because you almost certainly have a gay male neurology, are a mysogynist, gynophobic and anything but nice. I stand amazed you would continue to post on this thread given what you said to me such as:

"Go on and squeeze the juice out of your balls for practise because that is going to be how close you are at being a true women. I am so proud that I am more of a transsexual than you can ever be one."

Once again, I was born a tetragametic chimera (true hermaphrodite) not a transsexual. I am quite secure in my own womanhood so all the calling me a "boy" and squeezing balls (sorry, don't have them) talk and implying I'm a homosexual male only serves to expose your own reality. Please seek out help, you need a lot of therapy. Oh, and I was physically disabled on the job, almost sixty years old (five months from now) and I keep a loaded gun in the bedside table because the world is full of those such as yourself. Worry about yourself, not me. Like my mother, I can hit a fly at thirty yards offhand with a decent pistol.

Bats, it's a funny thing but I have always found male "logic" to be most illogical and it is downright comical to watch you defend magical thinking as logic. "I'm right about everything until you prove otherwise" also depends on the male patriarchal trait of dismissal of all women's POVs. Now I like magical thinking myself, afterall, I'm a theologian and Pagan priestess, but at least I know which style I'm using.

Yuki Choe said...

Cathryn, your insanity is well noted and taken into consideration. You might as well just admit it, you are a man torn by your intersex being into confusion. You are alone. Nobody with the right mind would want you. At 60 years of age you must be one haggard woman. I am still young and attractive. Why? You jealous? Three qualified psychiatrists already gave me their recommendations for surgery. What are you? Bedridden? Good. At least you would not be going around podiums spewing rubbish. And unfortunately, I am getting the surgery. I am the big regretter that I did not do it earlier. Trained in psychology? Says you. I also can say that I am the best transsexual doctor in the world, but that would be says me you see.

I am beginning to feel a great sympathy to separatists like you. You will go to all lengths to justify your need to fit into the triangular hole when you are a square. And because you still could not fit in, you force the triangular hole to be a square hole. Such behaviour is no wonder you need a gun. You have made a lot of enemies in your live with your mouth and thoughts. I can send you a toothbrush and tootepaste for free, since your mouth is so smelly. I do not want to get close to your brain!

I do not need a gun because I have close friends. I built friendship all over the years with people. Since you need a gun, I doubt you would even qualify for a girl's night out with me. At a straight club in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia. The bouncers would probably throw you out because you still look like a MAN while the lady called Yuki would be sipping away her ladies night's drinks. Poor Poor Cathryn.

You know, I change my mind. I will be here to listen to you if you need me. I am sure you need some place to voice out your frustrations. I will listen dear. After all, at least I apologized. But you have not. And still for countless times still put words into my mouth and always misread what I said. You eyesight must be dying on you at 60 plus. Poor poor baby. I really sympathize with you.

Ad hominems, ad hominems, ad hominems... that is what you get from people when they are out of solid things to say until they attack people in order to make their words less fragile. But this case if worse... attempting to make sure people do not get what you have lost.... I give you my hugz darling. *muah*! You lost so much. *tears rolling down cheeks*.

Yuki Choe said...

Battybats, she finally admitted she do not have balls. I have two on my chest. I am beginning to realise that Cathryn is here just because she wants attention. Unlike other situations, she might be suicidal. She admitted she had been abused too. I suggest that we just listen to what she has to say. May even save her sorry life. Or even just be out and proud. I always have such respect for people who actually put their faces out to complement their words. I doubt Cathryn dares to do that. And even if she does, I doubt it with my shoutout. She would probably put a fake one because her photo resembles a man.

Bad hair days said...

Hello Yuki Choe.

While I think someone with a mindset like that must have some serious issues, I think it doesn't make sense, to point that out to them. Let it be their tactict.

Actually my first encounters with theses girls where personal attacs from them against Mercedes.

They actually make pretty clear what they think and pointing out why you see errors there it only needs to more personal attacks.

Sue Ann even attacked Zoë for labeling reality what is theorie when Zoë opens this article with:

"I should preface all of this by "to the best of our knowledge..." or "the evidence very strongly indicates that..." or similar weasel-words, rather than making flat statements"

I always thought one of the more valuable feminin qualities is empathy. But I'm labeling no one a man for not having it.


Yuki Choe said...

Let me first admit that I have actually only yesterday and today decided to join in such discussions. I have read these separatists' comments at TransAdvocate and DentedBlueMercedes, and I thought I would experiment on different reactions to them. If you looked closely at my comment postings, I switched the tone of my commentaries; from the socialist crying out for unity, to the angry bitch, to the emphatic ear etc and now I am seeing observing the reaction using mean tacit sarcasm.

I do admit I find their stand unreal. They hold a very tras-nationalist communist point of view. For example: I am a classic transsexual even on the HBS terms they use, but because I support "transgenders" (when they actually are addressing transvestites) they automatically lumped me together with them calling me a gay man. Such patterns are very common in those seeking to force acceptance from people down their throats.

If you are not with them, you are against them. They believe their stance is the ultimate and allow no room to respect other people who may have their own opinions. And even when hard facts are laid out, they reject it because it will invalidate and devalue their status as "special" women.

In any case, I believe these divisions are healthy because different people in the "T" community would have different needs, and with all due respect, I still feel that their existence is good for those who need such company to make themselves feel accepted and proud. Everybody needs a home, and they will help those who needs affirmation in that school of thought.

I do not find these separatists or transvestites/cross-dressers dangerous. It is fair to look at the latest post at Autumn Sandeen's site about an ad which depicts a creepy man entering a ladies washroom after a young girl. Such representations are dangerous, even to them, whether they like to admit it or not.

I do not expect they will treat anyone with respect or address people's comments properly. But that is life. Everyone's different. That is what makes diversity beautiful. Peace to all.

Mercedes said...

You know, I don't doubt it when Cathryn says she was badly treated by people who identify as transgender. We're seeing that right now, aren't we, Yuki? As much as my experience has been quite the opposite, it doesn't make it right when we resort to that.

Zoe, I almost had to lock down a thread because tensions on both sides (*both* -- the people involved seemed to think I was reacting only to them) was reaching this pitch. Then, I'm afraid, they came here.

The bottom line is, we're not going to agree here. Beating the subject to death is only upping the frustration level to the point that it's bringing out the viciousness in everyone.

I'd like to think we can all be better than that.

Yuki Choe said...

The "screw yourself", gun thingymajiggy, and calling me a gay man was cool! :-) I am glad I finally had the taste of internal transphobia. Mercedes, you are right that I can see what you are seeing. But I just need to get a dose of this so that I can write up on it. Because this is fairly new to Asians as a whole. Most of the internalized transphobia here center on trans-racial segregation.

Cathryn said...

I told you to screw yourself after you stated anyone who hasn't had periods or can get pregnant isn't a "real" was a pure Feminist reaction....and it extended to my women friends with CAIS, PCOS, post menopausal. It was one of the single most gynophobic remarks possible.

Exactly how many times did you call me a boy, a man, speculate on my personal love life (absent any knowledge of my orientation even) before I pointed out this type of ranting is projection? Can you count them? I don't have the stomach to do so. I have noticed what I call the hundred to one princple with those like you. If I react once to a hundred similar insults, I'm labeled the aggressor.

It's a weird, backhanded acknowledgment of my womanhood strangely enough.

You attacked my disability
You attacked my being born intersexed.
You attacked my sanity.
You attacked my womanhood.
You attacked my sexual orientation.
You attacked my appearance.
You attacked my age.......and then say I engage in ad ad hominems.

What is must telling however, is you did all this with additional attacks in a clear attempt to destroy my own self esteem and practically admitted you were doing so to in order to drive me to suicide.

Sorry, I know who I am, like who I am, have lots and lots of triends (just not many tranny ones)

Yuki Choe said...

I am just learning from how you attacked me and other people in this discussion. Why? Do not like it? Did you not attack and invalidate and devalue everyone who disagrees with you? AND Puh-leez stop hiding behind that box of hormones would cha? My friends who are non-op TS (yes, some of them exist, and to operate means to be jailed or flogged where I come from) would be gasping at your grasp of transsexualim.

You slapped yourself by saying that true Ts-es MUST get rid of that, then said NO, periods and such are signs of womanhood. You put a big foot into your mouth with every other claim you make. But its been nice getting involved in this conversation for you. You really lust for so much attention from the very people you rejected. And since you lumped me along with them, I am here to satisfy that very lust. Your lonely longing will be fulfilled with me. Yeah, you have a lot of friends. We are here now entertaining your musings. ;-)

Yuki Choe said...

Typo error "You slapped yourself by saying that true Ts-es MUST get rid of that, then said NO, periods and such are *not signs of womanhood."

Zoe, I ask your permission on this.

I do not believe in making people's blog a stinking corner, so I am inviting everyone involved to a forum I just opened at my blogsite HERE.

Cathryn, SueAnn, BadHairDay, BattyBats, Leigh, Mercedes, Zoe, and everyone else TG or TS, are invited there.

Battybattybats said...

'male logic'?

That's another WTF! You may as well talk about 'male thermodynamics'. Logic is neither male nor female. I was taught logic by women I should point out.

Please point out the 'magical thinking' I used. By all means do correct my error.

" "I'm right about everything until you prove otherwise" "

I did not say that. I said "So either the precepts are wrong or the reasoning is wrong either of which may make the conclusion wrong. Or they are not. And like counting things out on ones fingers or paper anyone barring substantial cognitive issues can check that."

Thats a whole different barrel of apples. That is in fact how logical argument works. As for disproving hypotheses rather than proving them, that's scientific method. It's how it works!

It's the whole point, as I was taught, about looking at the WHY something is correct or incorrect rather than just asserting that it is so.

My words are a challenge to an assertion not 'I'm right till proven wrong' but rather 'if I'm wrong then you should be able to show how and why I am wrong'.

" also depends on the male patriarchal trait of dismissal of all women's POVs."

Strange, when I was a child and observed sexism it was frequently when women could give a 'why' to their being right but the men dismissed it because they were women while the men baselessly asserted being right.

I'm not dissmissing any womans POV let alone all! I'm dissmissing no-one.

"Now I like magical thinking myself, afterall, I'm a theologian and Pagan priestess, but at least I know which style I'm using."

I've done a little comparative theology study as well as grown up with some respected occultists, bhuddists and a couple of shamen as close family friends. But thats immaterial to this. What is material to this is the study of philosophy particularly logic, moral and ethical reasoning, even metaphysics.

I have a little background in that. :)

If I'm in error by all means point it out and I'll correct myself, after all anyone can make mistakes, a cognitively impaired disabled person like myself particularly. Thankfully I was gifted before being disabled so I can still manage well enough most of the time but please do point out my mistake.. precisely.

And maybe you should try and surprise me... by addressing my arguments rather than trying to find a weak point in some part of some sentence or minor point! Try addressing my broad argument and show that it is wrong. Otherwise it may just look like you have a desperate need to find any minor point with which to criticise me because my main argument is too strong.

That does us both a disservice. It makes you look desperate and if I'm wrong even partially wrong I cannot learn that unless you can bring up specific WHY's!

So I may have a point of magical thinking somewhere, if that is you are correct on that, but that does not invalidate my whole argument any more than your ad homs invalidate any other seperate argument you may raise.

You found my if-then earlier offensive. But is my argument wrong under the condition of 'if the precepts are true'? If not then the question is 'are the precepts true'?!?!

Yuki, I respect much of your previous posts on the subject but you shouldn't talk to Cathryn like that. She might fling about insults and ad hominems but you shouldn't do likewise especially as she isn't likely to get any irony you may be intending.

Besides, I find plenty of what you said to her insulting, to me where I share some of those catagories, to others in the other classes I don't share and in general too. I expect your trying to 'give a taste of her own medicine' but that doesn't make it right especially if she isn't likely to 'see the mirror'.

So if we can back off from the personal attacks logical-fallacies (those intended and those intended to give wisdom)...

Then lets go back to the actual subject shall we?

Regarding Transphobia, the 90's being a high-point in it's increase does not surprise me. The 80's anti-dungeons and dragons crusade had failed, the Satanic Panics were becoming a laughing stock and those whose power and authority rely in having a focus-group to hate had utterly lost the race-war, was losing on evolution vs creation-science in schools and could not get away with as much open sexism as they used to. Even picking on gays was becoming tough as sympathy over AIDS was finally building.

That people of the S&GD (sex and gender diverse) communities became the next target is hardly surprising and we have seen copious amounts of deliberate knowing lies about us in order to stir up hatred and oppose a host of bills as can be clearly seen in the 'not-my-shower' set and arguments made against ENDA, hate crime protection etc etc.

One need only read up on the 'wedge strategy' document and Intelligent Design to see that these kind of strategies are deliberate.

I certainly think they are the main cause of increased transphobia, not CDs, TSs TG-ism or any other such.

Yuki Choe said...

Noted BattyBats. And that was not me, really. :-) Thank you.

Cathryn said...

Bats.....been there done that with you. Over and over I point out you start from false assumptions to build a totally weird-ass chain of logic and you call it nit picking.....not gonna bother wasting another moment with you.

My positions are as follows:

If you are trans identified, you do not belong in women's space, period.

If you have and wish to keep a penis, you are not a woman, period.

If you attack the womanhood of women of operative history, you are a misogynist bigot, period.

What I find fascinating is that just one single instance of a gay man or a pope or some random fundie saying ANY of the things said to me here by an alleged "transsexual" would garnish an immediate no holds barred response from the trans communities. I've witnessed it over and over. If I, however, state I am a woman that is taken as an insult to the entire trans community and excuses all similar attacks on the womanhood of myself and everyone remotely like me.

And that is bigotry, insanity, illogic, hatred, neogynophobia, gynophobia, misogyny....bottom line.

Done here, I have real life things to get done today and have saved all the highlights of this hate fest for my own next blog.

Zoe Brain said...


Commenters are expected to be polite to one another.

From this point on, any comment that breaks this rule will be regretfully deleted, no matter how intelligently the ideas in it are expressed, nor how valuable they are to me personally in trying to make sense of the situation.

There are degrees, but err on the side of courtesy please.

We are all human. And no matter how misguided, how terribly, utterly and dangerously wrong some of us may be in one or more crucial areas, it's likely that we all have some facet of the truth others do not. That may be a huge great gem of truth with only a tiny flaw, or a tiny diamond hidden in a great steaming midden heap. But it probably exists for everyone.

Two opposing sides, one 99% correct, and 1% wrong, and the other 99% wrong, and 1% correct, have something to contribute, and something to teach me.

Please listen to one another. Respect one another as Human Beings, regardless of boy, girl, or something not quite either and not quite both. This can be very hard when you think, or you *know*, that your opponent's views are not just wrong, but dangerous and inhuman. Please try though.

Or, as I said, discourteous comments will be deleted. No more insults, no more arguments ad hominem, and no treating the other like an experimental animal in a psych lab.

No more trying to hurt others just because they've hurt you.

It's now nearly half past 2 in the morning, and I need sleep.

Please be kind to one another. If only you realised how much you all deserve that!

Battybattybats said...

1. Hypothetical plausible possibilities yet to be ruled out by solid data are not 'false assumptions'. They are in fact proper standard procedure for scientific method (the finding of alternative hypotheses that also match the data so that they too may be tested and compared) as well as for philosophy. So you have not yet refuted my arguments.

Absence of evidence because the evidence has not actually been looked for does not and cannot be construed as evidence of absence!

As plenty of other neurological variations occur in degrees then Occams Razor, logic and ordinary scientific method demands we consider that this will follow that same pattern until we look for it and find that it does not!

The chain of logic that flows from it is cogent or not. The precepts may be in error, but then so may yours turn out to be too as the many reversals of science show.

And that includes the precepts for the reasoning for each of your positions that you list.

2. "If I, however, state I am a woman that is taken as an insult to the entire trans community and excuses all similar attacks on the womanhood of myself and everyone remotely like me." I think you are missunderstanding what is happening.

Consider the comparison "If I, however, state I am a woman" with "If I, however, state I AND ONLY I am a woman". For you see all this that keeps happening to you seems to occur when you call others 'men' and yourself a woman and they object saying essentially that if they are men so are you and if you are not then neither are they.

Now irrespective of whether their view is correct or not that is what keeps happening. It is not that they object to your defining yourself as a woman but that you define yourself as a woman while denying that they are women and they see you and they as either equally women or equally men. It is not your defining of yourself as woman that offends and insults but the defining of others as men.

The doing the same back to you in response is merely to give you 'a taste of your own medicine'. To do to you what you do to them, by their perspective. (this is explaining their actions towards you, not excusing nor justifying them!)

Now consider this (and others ponder the variations that would be appropriate to you too!):

IF your precepts are incorrect on the validity of varied degrees of gender identity (as I discussed earlier) THEN all these people have a valid reason to be offended by many of your statements and many of their criticisms you complain of become apt and positions you disgree with become valid.

Have you heard of an excercise in philosophy called The Veil Of Ignorance? I suggest it's worth your reading about and contemplating. You may find it useful.

Especially as none of us, absolutely none of us, may be 100% certain we are not wrong in some way. We may be only partially correct, or have the wrong theory to match the data. This occurs regularly in science and we'd all do well to contemplate that.

Every one of us may in fact be wrong, even simultaneously!

leigh said...

my thoughts..

I dont think I have ever come across such rabid dialog anywhere on or off the internet as those displayed here. Our japanese person has done everything but pull a samarai sword, which she just as well at this point since even I have decided not to read the responses she posted any further. None of it makes any sense whatsoever and leaves me with the impression of screaming little japanese soldiers from world war II movies.

Our german friend seems to lack the experience to truly understand what people of significant personal longevity and experience both full time and either corrected or of intersexed background can offer them. Nothing new there by the way.

Our crossdressing friend is speaking from a viewpoint of a male that really has learned female as a parrot learns english. He has all the right ideas and his logic works .. but only on men.

Zoe I would have thought you might have better readership than this. There is no challenge here. Its mildly amuzing but overall as I said in an earlier comment, it really is trying to teach a pig to sing and I for one have no interest in going any further with it. There is no science to be had from this, there can be no agreements to be made, and no meeting of the minds. Good experiment though. Thanks for hosting and I wish you well.

sue_ann_robins said...

Good Grief.....

Is it any wonder the majority of us with an operative history want nothing to do with transgenders?

And Who is calling Who a Man?

And I mean it,
To you transgenders you know where you can find my sympathy.

Given the chance you would strip us of our womanhood just as many men have in the process of murdering their female victims by mutilating them.


We all have fields we are well read in. Besides the fields I have actually written papers in (three plus decades ago)I add to my list of fields of some expertise economics and sociobiology.

As I have matured I try hard to separate my opinion be it educated or otherwise from my true expertise. It is a baby step in putting conscienceless before ego, a necessary step to enlightenment.

I started on this path at the age of 24, that was almost 29 years ago. I tried all the ways possible to reconcile my state of body with my state of being. In that 28+ years of living as well ME :) I discovered a few key things to making a success out of living in society that many of the keyboard trannys don't understand...

1. Nobody likes people who sing "poor Me".

2. nobody likes people who act out in society ie gender queers and out and in your face homosexuals.

3. People admire those who work hard to be successful in society on society's terms.

4. Nobody likes to be assulted by someone's sexual preferance identity or gender identity, this is childish and serves no useful place in society.

5. The gender binary is a fact of life get use to it and adapt or forever be marginalized by society.

6. True Transsexuals or women who simply have an operative history are successful in society because they don't drag all their baggage into the daily lives of those who are around them.

7. Transgenders will always and for ever be marginalized, this is because their actions will always lead to marginalization, they will go the way of the beatnik in time. (thankfully)

Okay stick a fork in me, I'm Done.


justme said...

@Leigh, I'm sorry, you lost me with this comment:

"my husband consistantly finds me to illogical, as he does most females, and that is the entire point here .. batty, your a man arguing with a woman .. hello ? anyone home ?"

I've tried and tried, but can't come up with a plausible interpretation that's not insultingly misogynistic. It's hard for me to take anything you say seriously after that.

@Sue, you accurately and rather eloquently describe the social climate in which we live--and in the process, demonstrate precisely why it's wrong and why it's our duty as human beings, as Battybattybats points out, to challenge it. Similar if not identical arguments can be, and in fact have been, used to defend racism, and were used to keep women "in their place" until the feminists of the 1960s and '70s got "in your face" about it. In fact the same arguments continue to be used to hinder further progress in women's rights and real sexual equality. I'm reminded of one of my favorite bumper stickers: "Well-behaved women don't make history."

On the question of why the tide (at least here in the U.S.) seemed to turn against acceptance of transsexuals in the 1990s, I myself suspect the internet had a lot to do with it, but not necessarily for the reasons already suggested (though they all have some merit and deserve consideration). I know that's when I first encountered the "two types" "theory" of autogynephiles/extreme self-loathing homosexuals; even though I knew in my own heart that it was utterly false, that neither of these categories fit me, I could imagine others seeing me in that grossly (and apparently, deliberately) unflattering light and couldn't bear the thought. Bad enough to be seen by everyone as a man, albeit a normal, socially-acceptable one. But to be seen as a self-centered, narcissistic pervert? No, I couldn't even risk it. It was one of a number of similar incidents that kept turning me, in fear, away from the path I should have been treading, that collectively ended up delaying the start of my own transition by nearly four decades (and complicating it immensely). Maybe it's only my own insecurity about being pointed at and laughed at that gives it such prominence to me, but I think propagation of that awful "theory" had a lot to do with ruining it for all of us.

So, Sue, I'm sorry if what I said above about your arguments sounded judgmental; I'm certainly in no position to hold anyone else up for not taking a courageous stand against a pervasive social injustice. But I do ask that you recognise that it is in fact injustice, and not attack those like Battybattybats who do have the courage to fight it.

sue_ann_robins said...

I understand Leigh’s comment regarding what her husband said.
I have spent nearly all my life working with straight men and it’s not a stretch for me see that what Leigh was trying to relate to you and others is men and women think differently. The sooner the transgenders realize this the sooner they can find a comfortable niche in mainstream society.

In regards to my comment on mainstream society, You approach mainstream society from the position that you want to make it into your ideal of what society should be. I approach it from the position that it has the right to exist as it is, and I will fit in. This position I have also comes from my upbringing; I was borne blind, had a successful carrier in electronics for over twenty years, that carrier was very good to me and living as a fulltime (and at times thought never to be post-op) woman I used the same techniques in both making my place in society as a partially sighted person working in a carrier that was sight intensive but also as a woman trapped in the wrong body. Far too many of you transgenders never had any real adversity to overcome. You live a charmed life and don’t even know it, which is why I have no sympathy for any of you who whine about how bad society is.

You have to understand every one of us in the process of growing up must overcome our own insecurities. Some do it earlier then others; but everyone regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity, borne social status, race, or desire to be tied up and beaten must overcome those insecurities. We all have that in common along with the same way we put on our pants or skirt.

It’s not what you have to overcome in the world; it’s how you deal with what you have to overcome.

The transgenders and transvestites who have arrived late on the scene who hijacked the term “Transsexual” have done more damage to our reputation through their acting out, anti-social behavior and whining about the day to day things We have dealt with for 40+ years before they came along than any of our detractors.

Is it any wonder I have no sympathy for those trannys?
Is it any wonder why I look at them with contempt?
Is it any wonder I feel I have more in common with the conservative majority in the US?

No it’s not.


justme said...


Trust me, I got what Leigh was trying to say. Men and women do indeed think differently. Just not in the offensively stereotyped way Leigh was implying (and I still can't come up with any other reasonable interpretation of her remarks). Battybattybats says essentially the same things, in the same ways, as most of the feminist writers I've ever read and many women I've known through the years, including my own mother and sister (and father for that matter). To imply that she's arguing logically, and therefore thinks like a man, not only makes no sense to me; it offends me. Not that I have any right to go through life unoffended, but if you can see a different interpretation, one that wouldn't strain my credulity too much, I'd be grateful to hear it.

As for the rest--I'm just joining this discussion and I'm already growing weary from the name-calling and finger-pointing. Fine, we have different histories and some differences in how we approach life; neither of us is likely to change the other's mind so how about I don't judge you for your approach, and you don't judge me for mine?

Now, can I ask what your purpose is here? Is it simply to vent, to rail against those you feel are inconsiderately and selfishly making your life more difficult? I can certainly understand that impulse, in fact I share it, though I think the focus of my frustration is somewhat different from yours. If you're looking to find a supportive audience for your venting and form a consensus about the problem, though, you've either come to the wrong place, or need to be going about it differently, because the opposite seems to be happening here.

Battybattybats said...

Leigh: " He has all the right ideas and his logic works .. but only on men."

Weird then, as all my female friends are more logical than my male ones and I was taught logic by women. Could this be a cultural difference perhaps?

Actually one feminist I know has been decrying for more than twice my lifespan that women are taught not to be logical by social indoctrination and sexist views (the 'hysterical' and 'emotional' woman stereotypes) as emotive thinking makes them more easilly manipulatable by men and by advertising.

Sue: "Given the chance you would strip us of our womanhood just as many men have in the process of murdering their female victims by mutilating them."

Weird then that I keep defending your right to that womanhood, on the AHRC blog, in letters to politicians, in discussing your issues with friends to educate them... I agree that you are women, have an undeniable right to surgery etc. I just don't agree with your narrow definitions on who are women and broad ones on who are men. I like consistency you see and if I apply such narrow definitions to who are men not only are most FtMs 'not men' but plenty of people like me are not also. Making.. oh wow, a middle-ground of varying degrees a neccessity!

"2. nobody likes people who act out in society ie gender queers and out and in your face homosexuals."

Why is Abby on NCIS one of it's most popular characters? A clearly obvious Goth. Why were the androgynous GLAM musicians like David Bowie so popular if no-one liked gender queers? Marilyn Manson too? Also you say 'nobody'. That kind of extreme generalisation is patently untrue. I know plenty of people who do indeed like gender queers and in your face homosexuals.

"3. People admire those who work hard to be successful in society on society's terms."

Of course! That's why Ghandi, Martin Luthor King and Nelson Mandela are so universally despised! Oh wait, they are not. Joan of Arc too... hold on! A whole heap of many peoples heroes sre in fact those who directly opposed society and were successful in opposition to societies own terms!

"4. Nobody likes to be assulted by someone's sexual preferance identity or gender identity, this is childish and serves no useful place in society. "

People get over the discomfort with invisible minorities becoming visible. Sure there is a period of complaints about it but they get over it. They did with black people being 'in their face' ie not 'knowing their place and staying out of sight' and the same with women. And they have with Goths!

As for the useful purpose, it's one of priming immunity to discomfort with difference, of stretching people, of excercising their capacity to cope with the new. Avoiding difference is like living in a sterile environment, it makes one dangerously vulnerable and incapable of coping when finally exposed to something outside ones experience. As such in fact every single 'weird' person does a service to the entire community by helping all people in the community cope with the new. But avoiding difference harms the community, makes it brittle and fragile!

And again you say 'nobody' but I know that to be untrue and regularly so! Plenty of peoples heart warms to see gay people being as publicly affectionate as straight people are allowed to be. Once many people complained about interacial affection in public. You make the same argument with a different variable!

"5. The gender binary is a fact of life get use to it and adapt or forever be marginalized by society."

Society has embraced non-binary gender before so there is no reason to expect that it is forever impossible that that occur again.

"7. Transgenders will always and for ever be marginalized, this is because their actions will always lead to marginalization, they will go the way of the beatnik in time. (thankfully)"

LOL, you think that beatnik is dead? You don't know much about the history of subcultures then do you. About the interconnections that pass from the beats through to emo. Beats, hippies, the romantics.. these groups don't cease to exist, they merely change their style. What's the difference between the hippies and the ferals? little more than the name and the addition of piercings.

The underlying principles pass from one definition to the other. From Punk to Bat-Cavers to Darkwave to Goth to the Baby-Bats to Emo their is progression, continuity. Different names and changes in fashion trends but put an Emo next to a pre-goth punk and you can see it. Google Image search the current Emo band AFI especially from their last album (I'm sure you can find the extended clip to Miss Murder on youtube) and google Flesh For Lulu a bat-cave band from the early 80's (you can find some of their 1985 Camden Palace concert on youtube, I reccomend the songs Subterraneans and Death Shall Come) and see the connection between the bat-cavers and Emo.

I don't mind being in a minority and I know that minority does not ensure marginalisation! Strange, I spent last evening watching 80's cartoons (She-Ra mostly) with some friends. Lets see, I was there with my black velvet painted nails and purple lipstick, there was a high-school teacher, a builder, a tertiary education teacher and a new-ager.

All accepting me just fine. Oh and the kids who were visiting, the extended family of the builder, all not an issue.

Lets see, if we consider that societies mores are a valid measure of right and wrong then what should we have never challenged? Slavery, husbands 'perogative' to rape their wives, burning of witches, forced sterilisation, imprisoning of dissobediant and willfull women in insane asylums, genocide... oh me oh my can you really consider that all those socially accepted evils were ok? That those who were slaves etc should have merely tried to fit in and not challenge those?

Are you really wanting to side with the greatest evils of humanity and those who refused to challenge them directly?

I'll happily side with those who helped slaves escape, who hid jews and gypsies, who fought against tyranny, who marched for womens rights, who were arrested for wearing pants instead of skirts or for wearing swimwear that was less likely to cause drowning, who refused to hide that their love had a different skin colour etc etc etc.

Because society has never been a valid arbiter of right and wrong! It has always needed reform and still does.

"Far too many of you transgenders never had any real adversity to overcome. You live a charmed life and don’t even know it, which is why I have no sympathy for any of you who whine about how bad society is. "

My Goodness! Thats some interesting assumptions. Lets see, I'm disabled. I've expressed Goth sensibilities since long before it gained that name. I spent most of my life in poverty and faced classist assumptions as to my intelligence and morality and my family because of that poverty. Faced racism and anti-intellectualism as well as substantial bullying. I struggled aplenty. And i did it the hard way by not conforming to get by. I not only didn't obey the bullies and defied them but i supported and defended others who were also being bullied.

Go-along-to-get-along is easilly one of the most evil of notions because it makes one complicit in justice. The kid who looks away as the popular kid assaults the kid with glasses is not a virtuous person. The fat kid who helps hold down the kid with glasses so the popular kid will like them is even less so. It is only the kid who tries to intervene and stop the injustice who is virtuous.

And when I faced racism because my race was missidentified did I complain, did I blame the kids of that race for reflecting on me, did i try and distance myself from them so as to avoid the discrimination?

No, I just fought the racism as it was unethical and an injustice!

Go along to get along? Change yourself to fit in? Those are evils. No. I will defy those wrongs and change society to be more decent, more fair, more just.

I will change when I find myself being unethical, we all can fall into racism etc unconciously, but not when I'm being unpopular.

And I'll remember the old woman who came up and hugged me out of the blue at an art exhibition recently, praising my nails, my makeup, my jewelry, my long hair and my goth style. And the comedians backstage at the womens comedy festival who were utterly accepting of a transgender crossdresser.

See Sue, your wrong about much of society. You may possibly be right about your social circle, your regional area, but you are wrong about mine.

Actually that is a point. If discomfort with gender variance is innate what about the positive reaction I keep getting from children? One would think looking like an androgynous vampire would be frightening to them but that is not the reaction I consistently get.

From the young girls who came up and asked my name yesterday while we were making dinner in the kitchen to the one a while back who when I was walking past doing my shopping said "Daddy, is that a boy or a girl?" and after she was told not to stare at people I heard behind me "I think they're pretty".

Surely we should expect children to display innate issues with gender variance if they are definately not learned?

But none I have met do. So either I'm running into a lot of kids without the gender-issues genetic instinct or it activates later or it's learned behaviour.

I suspect it's entirely the latter.

Battybattybats said...

"Go-along-to-get-along is easilly one of the most evil of notions because it makes one complicit in INjustice."

Sorry for that major typo, my CFS is acting up and making language-use as well as typing difficult.

Anonymous said...

It's a shame I cannot find any work you have carried out on the subject that demonstrates a level of authority.


What qualifications does Brain have to make Brain an athority on the subject of what Transsexuality is?

What papers has Brain published?

Who has Brain studied under?

Brain isn't any more qualified then any other person.


We all have fields we are well read in. Besides the fields I have actually written papers in (three plus decades ago)I add to my list of fields of some expertise economics and sociobiology.

How do you add to your list of fields of some expertise if you have not published papers in them?

Anonymous said...

The only problem here is that Brain proclaims to be an expert on the intersex community and intersex people. The fact the matter is that Brain has no medical training and no knowledge of genetics. Brain is not an expert and brain is just sprouting her opinions, which doesn't in anyway impact on anyone.

Battybattybats said...

The criticisms of her views here aren't coming from geneticists and medical specialists either!

There's this thing called scientific journalism, where a journalist with enough scientific background conveys results of science research and related theories and implications in ways others can more easilly understand.

This appears to be largely what Zoe is doing!

Perhaps it is the qualifications and methodology of those she cites that you should be critiquing.

And can you sign your post as Ozymandias or Porche or h3so4 or something so we can tell one 'anonymous' from another?

Zoe Brain said...

I do have some formal training there - a post-graduate certificate in Science Communication from the ANU.

The course dealt with making complex scientific concepts accessible and understandable to a lay audience. These are often politicians charged with making decisions on the basis of expert (and often conflicting) advice.

Anonymous said...

How do you add to your list of fields of some expertise if you have not published papers in them?

Sorry - this post was me - I forgot to sign it.


Anonymous said...

I have one word to describe Leigh's views: polylogism.

sumptos devil s advocate said...

I was the anon above, I'm sorry.

Anyway, here is an article on polylogism as practiced by the socialists, as a fallacious defense against disproofs of their theories and an interesting excerpt (let's see how much it matches Leigh's comment above):

"The Marxians have resorted to polylogism because they could not refute by logical methods the theories developed by "bour­geois" economics, or the inferences drawn from these theories demonstrating the impracticability of socialism. As they could not rationally demonstrate the soundness of their own ideas or the un­soundness of their adversaries' ideas, they have denounced the accepted logical methods. The success of this Marxian stratagem was unprecedented. It has rendered proof against any reasonable criticism all the absurdities of Marxian would-be economics and would-be sociology. Only by the logical tricks of polylogism could etatism gain a hold on the modern mind."

You see, only transsexuals like Leigh fall up when they trip, while all you loser transsexuals fall down, because they have a special kind of logic.

sue_ann_robins said...

In regard to Leigh’s comment, I cannot provide a way to ease your agitation, like you said We think differently. I cannot just walk and leave you and your kind be since you have hijacked a label that use to only apply to me and my kind and you have drug that label through the mud of social deviance. We didn’t ask for this hijacking of the word TS, you people (the TG’s) had a credibility problem in the mid 90’s. (it was no wonder why there is such a credibility problem) and so the term was hijacked by transgenders to legitimize their screwy movement.

My purpose here is the same as yours.

Oh and I don’t need to go looking for a supportive audience, it already exists and is quite large.

At least our womanhood exists and is not some proclamation; I am in every way female.
Just like every woman of operative history and every human borne without a penis.
I and others like me don’t need your support we have the support of mainstream society and that is what this is all about going back to the mid 90’s when a few men in dresses hijacked the term transsexual.

You asked;
“”Why is Abby on NCIS one of it's most popular characters?””
Because it is human to gawk at the sideshow freak.
I don’t watch the show and I don’t need to in order to answer your question.
People like to gawk at the side-show freaks but would never want one over for dinner or as a neighbor.

Your slavery analogy and the others you sight are straw men (in dresses I might point out) and I don’t have time for your diversionary tactics, stay on point.

Oh and your whining about living in poverty; I funded my transition on a yearly income of less then 15K a year that includes my corrective surgery by the way. You have just proven my point about the incessant whining. Thank You.

There is no injustice in dealing with society on its terms.

Have a nice day.


Bad hair days said...

>There is no injustice in dealing with society on its terms.

With a bit knowledge in history - where do you think I heard something like this before?

sue_ann_robins said...

Which history Badhair.

History is never objective.


Bad hair days said...

Hallo Sue Ann.

A lot of germans, austrians and italians. Some of them still alife and saying things like your comment, when asked about the times of 1933 and 1945 and their role in it.


sue_ann_robins said...

You didn't answer my question.

Which history?

sue_ann_robins said...

The Truth can be a dangerous thing.


leigh said...

I am going to make one last post here and then ... I AM DONE WITH


I do not need or welcome you or anyone else defending my; as you put it "right to womanhood". You are a crossdresser, NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, but the fact remains that for the most part you are a man that likes to wear womens clothes, which in the eyes of society is defined as a fetish. I resent you defending transsexual women in blogs, letters to politicians and discussions with friends, not because you are a crossdresser but because you seem to think you need to, well you don't, and I would prefer you to cease and desist, not that you will because you truly believe that you are doing us poor downtrodden transsexuals a service. Give me a break! You and other well meaning crossdressers and transgenderists have no idea what being transsexual is, yet you constantly feel that its your duty to speak on the subject. Do you not understand that most transsexuals want PRIVACY! We don't want to be talked about, discussed, disected, felt sorry for, or even helped along with laws. We abhor the limelight and prefer to go about our business quietly, getting our letters, doing our time and moving slowly and quietly on to assimilate in our target gender WITHOUT FANFARE... OK! So, go about talking about crossdressing, and clothes and little girls that think you're pretty and cute and just shut the f*** up about transsexuals of which you are not and quite frankly only understand through those TG's out there that CLAIM to be transsexual like this charachter Just Me that only came out of the closet after 40 years or so! Transsexualism doesn't come out of the closet! Transsexuals have such a forceful drive to transition that they could not live in male mode for 40 odd years out of fear, transsexuals know they are inatly transsexual very early in life and they move heaven and earth to put things right, they don't hang out in their male mode for 40 odd years out of fear, then suddenly decide to come out and transition when they find the internet! And that my dear battybats and 'just me', is where you and I will always have a difference of opinion. You are trying to kill sue and I with you're stupid logic and dogged resistance, calling in your other friends to write some of the stupidest crap I won't even bother to legitimise with a reply.

Just go about your business and quit claiming to be, or represent yourself as any sort of transsexual or spokesperson for transsexuals, when you in fact do transsexuals a disservice in the attempt.

And as for the rest of you ... BITE ME .. I am DONE HERE!

Anonymous said...

"Transsexualism doesn't come out of the closet! Transsexuals have such a forceful drive to transition that they could not live in male mode for 40 odd years out of fear, transsexuals know they are inatly transsexual very early in life and they move heaven and earth to put things right, they don't hang out in their male mode for 40 odd years out of fear, then suddenly decide to come out and transition..."

Better not tell your buddies Cathryn & Lisa about that. It might hurt their feelings.

sue_ann_robins said...

So much for the Anonymous Transvestite Troll.

Source Considered.


Cathryn said...

and here we have a perfect example of why I do not post much of anything on my personal life......

We have idiots everywhere claiming knowledge about me they don't have.

Hey Anoyymous, clue time, learn to read.....I'm intersexed, not transsexual

justme said...

@Sue, I didn't say we think differently; I said men and women think differently. But I have to admit based on your posts, your statement is equally true. I don't reduce unique individuals to convenient easily-despised categories by calling them "you people." I don't set out to alienate myself from them by referring to them as "you and your kind." And I can't think of a single woman I know who wouldn't be deeply offended by Leigh's sexist remark. For that matter, I can't think offhand of any men I associate with who wouldn't be--or at least who wouldn't make a show of it for any women in earshot. I don't hold her remark against you, of course, but I'm rather taken aback that you don't find it offensive as well.

I still don't know your purpose here, and it's awfully presumptuous of you to say it's the same as mine since I haven't ever said what mine is, as far as I remember.

My purpose in engaging in this discussion with you is to try to understand your hostility, why you think it's appropriate to direct any of it at me (whom you've never met and about whom you know next to nothing), what you hope to accomplish by insulting and vilifying people in direct confrontation, and to see if it wouldn't be possible to persuade you to take a less hurtful, less adversarial, and (to my way of thinking) less counterproductive approach to dealing with your pain and frustration. I've all but given up on this last bit, and am reduced to trying to infer the rest from what you say and how you say it. I don't like to infer motives, though; you can never really know what goes on inside someone else's head, can you? So I'd still like to hear your explanation, if you care to give it.

@Leigh, if you'd like to explain to me how your remark wasn't offensively sexist, I'm willing to listen. I'll let your personal remarks pass without comment if that's what it takes to open a dialogue with you.

leigh said...

As I said I am done with this blog. If you want to open further discussion with me I can be found @ which is also a place to understand what we collectivly have been saying, as well as get a background as to why we are here on zoe's blog.

sue_ann_robins said...

I don't harbor any hostility toward you I hold hostility toward those trannys who insist on including classical TS under their umbrella. I find it offensive to my friends. I'm not trans-anything, as I have said here and elsewhere "I had a birth defect, and I had it corrected"

There term you people or the term your kind only carries whatever baggage you and others wish to attack to it.

That is not my problem.

My original reason for being here was to express my outrage against Brain's arrogance implying in her blog entry that "She" was actively involved in research regarding TS'ism and It's origin.


justme said...

@Leigh, thanks, I'd rather not butt in where it seems pretty obvious up front I'd not be welcome. I'd still like to hear what you have to say though, so I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and give you my email address here: justme2762 (at) gmail (dot) com.

@Sue, no, you were pretty clearly expressing hostility toward those you were grouping me with, and including me specifically by saying "you and your kind." I'll take your denial as an apology of sorts, but sadly I don't see much point in trying to discuss this with you further. I don't share your outrage and think it is misplaced, I don't find your approach likely to change my mind, and at this point I can't think it's likely I'll be able to persuade you to change yours either.

leigh said...

just me

there's that fear again .. what ever gave you the opinion that you would be welcome in real world womens space? I assume you overcame that and went anyway .. right?

Sometimes it's best to step out of the familiar in order to attain knowledge .. but I understand you may not be ready for that much reality .. :)

Anonymous said...


"I'm intersexed, not transsexual."

"The next area to examine is loathing of genitals. The narrative insists on this and following from it assumes absolutely no sexual use of them. Anyone who has been on both sides of testosterone can tell you how bloody powerful that stuff is in it’s effect on libido..."

"There was a veritable flood of late transitioners at this point as they entered male menopause and experienced what came to be known at the time as GID crisis (gender identity disorder). Having experienced this myself, I became interested in reasons for this and postulated that if transsexuality was neurologically based, a female brain finally experiencing reduced testosterone would crave not testosterone but estrogen instead."

So, you ran around for 40 years with a beard, sticking the p33n in women, then had "male menopause", had a sex change, and they found you had a secret ovary all along.


You know what's really cool about the internet? Nobody has to go looking for crazy anymore; they can get it pumped right into their living room at 10MBps.

Sign me,
Norm L. Citizen

sue_ann_robins said...

If the shoe fits.......

If you consider yourself to be transgender, as I believe you do then I harbor contempt for you and your kind using the term transsexual to describe yourselves. You do my TS friends a great disservice.

in a word

sue_ann_robins said...


Your quite correct one doesn't have to go far to find crazy on the internet.
You Sir are a good example.

Have a nice life;
What is left of it.

justme said...

@Leigh, I think you've just amply demonstrated why I'm justified in believing I wouldn't be treated with even a modicum of respect on your blog. Fear? What have I got to be afraid of from you? No, I just don't enjoy being treated like sh*t and I don't go out of my way looking for that if there's nothing to be gained thereby. As for attaining knowledge--you haven't given me much reason to expect there's actually any to be found there. I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, in private emails, but just FYI--insults and taunting aren't very effective persuasion techniques.

@Sue, all I can do is shrug. Further discussion between us is clearly pointless.

Zoe Brain said...

Norm L Citizen

The beard is unlikely for biological reasons, and the ovary may in fact be ovotestes, but yes, such things happen all the time.

I had something similar happen to me, remember? Even stranger though, as any ovarian tissue I might or might not have had was removed when I was 20. (Personally I doubt there was any, the anomalous tissue was probably just a neoplasm).

And yet my body feminised, with all sorts of interesting endocrinal oddities we still haven't been able to explain yet.

It happens. No weirder than what happens to people with 5ARD, who look (somewhat, partly, or completely) female at birth, and (somewhat, partly or completely) male later. Appearance varies widely, and so does gender identity.

There really *are* more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Please do some research, and you'd be surprised what happens.

Battybattybats said...

Sue:"I cannot just walk and leave you and your kind be since you have hijacked a label that use to only apply to me and my kind and you have drug that label through the mud of social deviance."

Social deviance? Like freeing slaves, treating women with respect, women speaking up for themselves... if liberty and equality and ethics are 'social deviance' while slavery racism sexism antisemitism and genocide have ALL been socially acceptable and opposing them social deviance than guess what?

We improve the label while you degrade it!

"You asked;
“”Why is Abby on NCIS one of it's most popular characters?””
Because it is human to gawk at the sideshow freak."

LOL. na-ih. While that can indeed be 'human nature' that is not what is going on. When she comes up in conversation with the 'nroms' I know and meet they approve of her style. They are pleased to see Goths can be cheery and intelligent. Plenty of straight norm guys and bi and lesbian norm women have told me how hot they find her and goth fashion in general.

Arguments from ignorance don't work so well. Try watching some Ruby Gloom.

See your making assumptions, lots of em. And dismissing my experiences wwhen they don't match your preconceptions.

But nevertheless there are Goth themed tv programs on kids afternoon tv in multiple countries and multiple languages.

We have manga, anime, comics, movies and not some flash-in-the-pan thing but decades of increasing acceptance.

And one thing you may not have realised about Goth is how accepting it is of things like gender non-conformity :)

Heard of Naruto? I doubt it. But very few between 10 and 26 have not... and there are plenty of teenage boys and girls idolising gender non-conforming characters. We even have Dracula as the hero in one of the most successful anime/manga series of recent years changing sex!

I guess you have no idea how much society is changing do you?

As for advocating for the issues of transsexuals.. I don't know if you live in my country let alone my state. But I know some transsexuals who do. And ones who fit the term even by your own standards! They have faced a panoply of discriminations especially when it comes to treatment by health services unrelated to hormones and srs but simply because they are TS. And they are quite happy for me to continue. And so as they do appreciate what I'm doing and indeed do need help guess whose opinion counts for more? That's right! Theirs and not yours!

"That is not my problem"
Veil of ignorance and social-contract: TOTAL FAIL.

See the removal of continuing injustice and inequality is in fact the moral and ethical and social-contract responsibility of everyone who benefits in any way from the egalitarian principles of the post-absolute-monarchy world.

I suggest you actually read about the Original Position/Veil Of Ignorance before you even consider making another decision of moral reasoning in any facet of your life let alone continue in this discussion. Read and think, think hard!

Try not formng judgements in ignorance. Cause I tell you what, us 'freaks' are on averge far more ethical, decent, altruistic, compassionate and all the other qualities that really are of value amongst our species than amongst the 'norms'. For starters because for pedophiles and rapists etc to suceed they have to blend in, so they look like the most average and acceptable folk they can!

Try judging people on their ethics, not their appearance or degree of 'conformity'. More and more people are learning that lesson, perhaps it's time for you to catch up too?

sue_ann_robins said...

I am not going to bother to read your reply, not out of fear but simply because I have better things to do then read your homosexual dogma.

We (the true transsexuals and woman of transsexual history) did just fine well before most of you were even borne. We secured the right to have our birth certificates corrected (after corrective surgery) well before the homosexuals and transvestites joined forces to try and destroy our good name and status in the mainstream community.

We don't want your help We want you to go back to playing the kooks on Jerry Springer.

Good Bye.


Battybattybats said...

Homosexual Dogma?

That's hilarious! Enlightenment principles are now homosexual dogma? Did someone warn the founding fathers of america that they were building a nation on homosexual dogma? The french revolutionaries that freedom from monarchy was homosexual dogma? Feminism in it's entirety, even the suffragettes following homosexual dogma?

So all attempts at and expressions of personal liberty are homosexual dogma is it Sue?

Is philosophy itself, the entire field homosexual dogma too Sue? Did anyone tell John Rawls, the philosopher whose work I was encouraging you to read that he was creating Homosexual Dogma Sue? Did anyone tell his wife Sue?

Your position is a laughning stock now Sue. I do hope that some of the other supporters of the rest of your views will hurriedly distance themselves from your stupid statement and actually respond as intelligent people to the points raised so that they and their views are not equally tainted by the stain.

No-one conspired to 'destroy (y)our good name and status' they merely claimed what is their due and that of every other sentient being! Basic Human Rights. A term apeared to apply to them and others applied it to them just as much if not more than they applied it to themselves.

Mainstream society is filled with evils and needs more of the same reform that has been going on for centuries... getting all those who benefited from being treated as 'equal' to finish the job of making sure that applies to everyone not just some!

And this will continue despite your objections because if it is not right then you never deserved your equality either and if it is tright then you are equally obliged to it!

Your holding a lose-lose position.

Mainstream society has been reformed to be more just, will be reformed to be more just and is being reformed to be more just!

Goth acceptance 'homosexual dogma' that's hillarious! Most Goths are straight, though you wouldn't know that Sue as you have revealed your supreme ignorance. They just are far more accepting of Gays Bis and all varieties of Transgender.

You suggested we were sideshow freaks being gawked at, you consider my response 'homosexual dogma'? C'mon! Who can watch Ruby Gloom (a youtube link is in that post you would not read) and actually point out how that is Homosexual Dogma?

You lost Sue, your losing Sue, you will lose Sue.

And I realise you probably won't read this. I realise you probably came here to try and stir up people to then cherry-pick out of context soundbites for use on your causes websites to try and get a facade of respectability and validity to your arguments.

It's a common tactic amongst those whose views cannot stand under their own merit or against direct evidence like the Intelligent Design movement.

So I expect you think you got what you came for and are leaving now thinking you have some form of victory... :D

But this blog is a very well trafficked one and plenty of astute and intelligent people read it. Ones who will laugh upproariously at your condemning my post without having read it as Homosexual Dogma, your opposition to notions of basic liberty and equality.

Much more than on the many other blogs where your group has followed this same tactic and made these same arguments this one leaves fine distinct footprints that fossilise well. Your leaving a very poor showing in the historical record Sue....

So has anyone else on Sue's side the integrity to actually disscuss the subject? Or are you all shouting "we're not listening" with your fingers in your ears and pretending anything contrary to your worldview, like the award-winning childrens cartoon Ruby Gloom, is Homosexual Dogma?

C'mon, this is the theme song, it's nice and it's short.
(I have it as the ringtone on my mobile phone)

Hate to tell you this, but the 'freaks' are often the heroines and heroes of history and justice. So you shouldn't judge people by the colour of their clothes any more than their skin, by the length of their fringe any more than the shape of their nose, by the piercings in their bodies and the skulls on their cute-animal-shaped backpacks or their androgynous appearance any more than by the shape of their eyes or the religious symbols that they wear.

It really is that simple. You really have been so obviously and embarrassingly and catastrophically bigoted.

sue_ann_robins said...

I am the one on shaky ground.

That is laughable, I am the one who has a successful life in mainstream society.

Oh please take your Infantile Feline Feces somewhere else.

To quote one of the great musical geniuses of modern times.

"Look here brother, who you jivin with that cosmic debris.

Look here brother, don't you waste yuour time on me."

Have a nice life.
I know I will.


Battybattybats said...

You may find this interesting:

Personally I'm disabled. But how do you determine a 'successful life'?

Do I live well? Certainly better than many I know. The disability pension takes care of my basic needs, it's not much but it's better than having none and it's good to have the safety net. Do I have good friends? I have many, from all manner of ethnicities, cultures, subcultures, religions, ages, classes, careers and abilities and the number is growing steadilly with two added this week and I'm invited to another party to meet more people tomorrow night (and not to gawk at I'm afraid Sue, I shan't be the only goth there.) Do my opinions thoughts and actions matter? To many who know me yes they do, much more than for many people I have known in my life. And all that despite a particularly bad case of a very disabling condition.

Some more antidote to your profound ignorance:

No matter how upsetting you may find it the fact is that the real world doesn't fit your model. 'Mainstream Society' is changing for the better. We are changing it. It is growing in it's acceptance of us.

The more you shout 'freak' the more funny it becomes. You know, in the real world of my rural town it's been over a decade since I got any flak at all for being a Goth. The world comes to terms with difference, accepts and moves on. But people still admire the courage and freedom of difference, and I get compliments, not insults.

Now if you excuse me I have to paint my nails a nice sparkling silver for tomorrows party! But don't worry. I wont be gone long.

You see the genie is out of the bottle. Us 'freaks' aren't going away, not ever. You can adapt to the changing environment or not. We'll still be growing.

As the studies show us Goths are more often good people than the 'norms'. More peaceful, accepting, compassionate, supportive...


radicalbitch said...

I will confess I no longer read, but merely scan, those long, rambling, incoherent replies of yours too. You lost me about a year ago when you were claiming women abused men in equal numbers.

Be a goth, who cares?.....I certainly don't. Be a crossdresser, who cares? again, not me. But where I object strongly is you speaking and "educating" on subjects you cannot have first hand knowledge about and that would be specifically feminism , living in the world as a woman and anything at all to do with being born neurologically or otherwised intersexed. When you do it comes across as yet another man speaking for women. We can speak for ourselves. I won't bother to read the 2000-3000 word reply you answer this with.

sue_ann_robins said...

Bats you said;

””Personally I'm disabled. But how do you determine a 'successful life'?””

That won’t wash with me, I was borne blind, had part of my sight restored and held a very successful electronics carrier for 21 years. The last 14 years of that carrier occurred while I was living fulltime. I might point out that last 14 years was very successful for me both in terms of my carrier and financially. When I see people start out by declaring their disability they have indicated to me they have already given up, usually long before they could have made a successful life for themselves. A few however became disabled later in life and just simply don’t have the strength to deal with it.
I also have a disability pension, one that my carrier funded because I was aware that my working lifetime would be somewhat limited. Thankfully I don’t rely on Uncle Sam for a handout.

The real world fits my model close enough and frankly we are half a world apart and our cultures are very different. I still live in a country that values a person’s basic rights one being the right to defend one’s self. We also don’t live under the rule of the queen (I won’t capitalize the title I disrespect her)
We are not going to see eye to eye on most things, the only thing we have in common is a language.
And I find socialism to be the second worst form of government.

I do feel sad to see that so many in the Goth subculture are so troubled, that is a parenting issue.
There was a time when people could point to a religious or national leader that would provide some assurance and a good role model sadly those are bygone days. My generation chose to act out by demonstrating against all the war and carnage in the world, many of us chose a peaceful path while a few became the deranged leaders we have in the world today. Satan and his minions are definitely at work.

Thank God for homeschooling which is still legal in this country.

I will continue to shout freak at the transgenders so long as they act like freaks and insist on trying to tear down the natural boundaries between the sexes.

You are right the genie is out of the bottle and issues will have to be dealt with and it will be on the greater society’s terms, just as the right of a woman to have control over her body was dealt with.

This discussion has run it’s course.
Time to move on thankfully I have other pursuits in life well apart from all of this tranny nonsense.
Regardless of our situation, we must find something positive to do in our life, even if it is to sit outside and admire the wildflowers growing in the field down the street from our home
I hope you have that happy place to go to; living in the Bible belt in San Antonio, just around the corner from John Heggy’s church was my happy place. Coming back to The People’s Republic of Kalifornia (the state of California) was not one of the high points of my recent life.

I can attest to the value of true friends if it wasn’t for one of those friends I would be homeless due to the rising cost of living in the US. So a roof over my head in this third world cesspool is better then living under a bridge in Texas.

Take care


leigh said...


did the crossdressing goth bishop of bath and wells bugger off to his party yet? Christ! what a load of cobblers spews forth from between his ears.. he is enough to make a vicar swear. He ought to get a wheelchair accessible soap box and set himself up in hyde park giving three shows a day to the tourists. I mean who gives a monkeys how many friends he has or how many outragous parties he attends? It's England for christ's sake, where even Dame Elton John gets to be a respected knight of the realm. Gaw'd 'elp the bloody empire!

Battybattybats said...

radicalbitch: "I will confess I no longer read, but merely scan, those long, rambling, incoherent replies of yours too. You lost me about a year ago when you were claiming women abused men in equal numbers."

I did not 'claim' that radicalbitch. I merely mentioned a claim made by others as reported on the Livescience site. Theres a difference between making a claim and mentioning anothers claim.

Battybattybats said...

sue: "I do feel sad to see that so many in the Goth subculture are so troubled, that is a parenting issue."

Actually the Goth subculture is healing the damage done by both parenting and the mainstream society you adore so much. But as the link shows, Goth culture heals, supports and helps. Helps heal the damage done by 'mainstream society'!

"Satan and his minions are definitely at work. "

For the record there are huge numbers of Christian Goths. Some churches even have held special masses for the Goth community!

"I will continue to shout freak at the transgenders so long as they act like freaks and insist on trying to tear down the natural boundaries between the sexes."

Got some bad news for you. The party i went to included a number of local teen Goths and as I was there out as a crossdresser I asked about the situation regarding gender and their age-group... :D

Apparently guys wearing skirts are quite popular amongst even the mainstream kids at school currently. Not just the Emos and the Goths but the Mainstream kids.

"I hope you have that happy place to go to"

Indeed I do. I live in an old house on the top of a hill opposite a huge historic building with stain glass windows and rose gardens accross form my house. It's grounds filled with old gnarled trees. In it lives a large family of microchiroptera and a short walk down the hill less than half a block away next to the art museum and the cemetary is the colony of thousands of macrochiroptera, the largest species in this country in fact. So every dusk I can walk over the road, smell the roses, walk down the street and observe the waking macrochiroptera and watch as they fly out over the graveyard and, after a pleasant stroll amongst the tombstones I can catch glimpses of the feeding microchiroptera as I walk down the tree-arched street in the moonlight. Often I do this with a number of Goth friends. It's a lovely way to meet before we watch the Le Chevalier D'Eon anime.

It's so picturesque a spot i'm often so moved as to have to fight back tears.

Sorry to hear about your housing issues. I hope that improves for you soon. No matter how differing our opinions i certainly wish you well. I'm glad you too have friends like that.

Battybattybats said...

Leigh, I'm in Australia. Rural 'redneck' Australia. Near where they hold the annual Country Music Festival.

Not Camden in the UK or Newtown in Sydney where there are huge Goth enclaves but rural NSW Australia.

And c'mon leigh. surely we can converse in a polite manner.

I am able to manage civil polite discussion of ideas and facts. And no amount of calling me things will make me wrong if I'm right or show me and others that I am wrong if i am wrong.

leigh said...

Crickey! .. That explains the long windedness! ... Does being polite mean I have to call you ma'am ?

Battybattybats said...

Actually leigh, the long-windedness is caused by my symptoms. When they are worse being concise is much harder than being verbose. To the point of substantial pain some days.

I started talking at an early age and in full sentences. I'm also, when my symptoms allow, a writer and that often in victorian/gothic styles. Hence the more verbose style is the easiest, requiring the least effort.

As for politeness, no-ones asking for formal ettiquette.

Just leaving the insults out. Which helps your arguments too. So that our viewpoints can wax or wane on their own merits and those of the data.

Anonymous said...

A Few things you should know about Sue Ann Robins:

1. This person is essentially homeless and jobless.

2. Sue Ann receives a monthly stipend for various mental disabilities and has been doing so for at least 5 years now.

3. Sue Ann claims to have had SRS but it remains to be seen how someone who has admitted that their only source of income is a small government check could possibly afford SRS.

4. Sue Ann is well known as a self-loathing transgendered person who claims to have had SRS and is quick to put down gays, lesbians and transgendered people .