I was prescribed Androcur just before the diagnosis was changed to "severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman". There are quite a number of IS women on this list of male sex offenders. I'm one of them.
Thursday, 15 October 2009
Actually... this is true
From OII Australia:
I was prescribed Androcur just before the diagnosis was changed to "severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman". There are quite a number of IS women on this list of male sex offenders. I'm one of them.
I was prescribed Androcur just before the diagnosis was changed to "severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman". There are quite a number of IS women on this list of male sex offenders. I'm one of them.
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Is there anything close to a logical reason, or even a not-completely-nonsensical excuse for this?
Zoe, Can I ask how you know that you are on this register?
Can you please provide the steps that you took to ascertain that you were on this register?
I was on Androcur between about 1998 and 2001 and am concerned that I may be on the list also.
From memory, in order for my Doctor to prescribe me Androcur under the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, he had to say to the operator that I needed the medication to treat "sexual deviancy in adult males".
Even if that is the case, I have never been served with a notice or been given an opportunity to defend any allegations of this nature.
Nicole... your doctor really should have informed you of the consequences of having that diagnosis.
I'm sorry to say that everyone with it is put on the list. It is, in fact, a list which is *defined* as being of sexually deviant males who are being chemical castrated with androcur.
The prescribing physician has to phone the authorities, confirming diagnosis and treatment. That's who "the operator" was.
There's no appeal, and once on, never off.
Professor Steinbeck made this quite clear to me at the time. He made very sure that I was aware of the issue.
It was a shame that his diagnosis of me as a "severely androgenised non-pregnant woman" hadn't propagated through the PBS system by then, but I needed the stuff urgently in an attempt to stabilise my condition. I'd lost 1/3 of my body mass already, any delay could have led to some Bad Stuff(tm) happening.
That was made clear too. He left the decision in my hands. He was deeply distressed by it - more so than I was.
My attitude was that as long as I knew the facts, it didn't matter. Yes, inconvenient, but I can't feel ashamed of something I'm not guilty of. No-one can humiliate me without my giving them permission. I refuse to do that.
If the Government puts me on such a register, that reflects badly on them, not on me. And it's not as if I'm the only one... the list has become devalued and useless because of that. Too many IS people - and TS too - on it, and very few sex offenders for whom it was originally intended.
So dose this mean that Zoe Brain is a registered Sex offender in Australia. I wonder if she's on the list of registered sex offenders. I wonder if they are doing that in NZ as well. That means that in Australia, if your intersex or trans and you need that med, you have to register and be classed with the Sex offenders.
Wow, and you people hawk about being liberal and free. That doesn't sound so Liberal and free to me, when intersex or trans people in Australia have to class themselves as sex offenders to get their meds.
I'm glad they don't pull this sort of crap in America.
"There's no appeal, and once on, never off"
I wouldn't be too sure of that!
Zoe,
Can you please let people know how to find out whether their names are on the list. Before any of us have ascertained whether we are definitely on this list we can't do anything about it.
Since this drugs primary use is for the treatment of prostate cancer one the most common forms of cancer in males. I find this extremely hard to believe. This would mean that Alan Jones is on the list! Hardly likely someone like Alan Jones would stand for it without making the biggest fuss anyone in Australia has ever encountered. I call bullshit on this,
Evangelina
I didn't think anyone even took Androcur anymore due to the severe side effects. Spironolactone has been the anti androgen of choice for years.
Either way, this sounds fishy to me. Hard to reason that someone never convicted of a crime could be put on a sex offender list simply for being prescribe a drug.
Just to clarify: there are several diagnoses that allow treatment with cyoproterone acetate (Androcur, Cyprostat, Cyprohexal etc etc) under the PBS for males:
See PBS description.
1014 Advanced carcinoma of the prostate;
1404 To reduce drive in sexual deviations in males.
A 1404 diagnosis puts you on the list. Unless you have prostate cancer, it's the only diagnosis possible in order to receive it.
Women can also be diagnosed with a 1230 code:
1230 Moderate to severe androgenisation in non-pregnant women (acne alone is not a sufficient indication of androgenisation).
See PBS again.
Intersexed people have difficulties, as they may have medical conditions that can only happen in males simultaneously with medical conditions that can only happen in females. The PBS practice is to change sex in the database as required. Hence someone may be being treated for "sexual deviation in a male" in the morning, "severe androgenisation in a woman" in the afternoon, and back to "sexual deviation" an hour later.
It's a work-around for the fact that the PBS system was not set up with Intersexed people in mind.
Androcur has severe side-effects in 30% of people, including liver damage and muscular degeneration.
These are easily detected by simple blood tests before they can cause lasting damage. Taking Androcur without 3-monthly blood tests in the first year is dangerous. With them, safe.
Spironolactone can and has killed people due to its potassium-sparing effects. Eat too many bananas by mistake... not good.
The US FDA thinks Androcur is too dangerous. Everyone else in the world thinks that it's actually safer than Spiro. It also has a useful progesterone effect.
Zoe,
I'll stop bombarding your comments with this:
You say in your blog post that "There are quite a number of IS women on this list of male sex offenders. I'm one of them."
Have you seen the list? Have you conducted a Freedom of Information search of the list for your name? Or, have you just taken your Doctor or Endocrinologist's word that you will be placed on such a list?
In these comments you go on to say "And it's not as if I'm the only one... the list has become devalued and useless because of that. Too many IS people - and TS too - on it, and very few sex offenders for whom it was originally intended."
This would indicate to me that you know of others who have seen the list or used FOI to search the list and seen their names on it.
It's not that I don't believe you, hell I understand as well as anyone the reasons we don't trust anybody are based on people with no idea making ill-informed and prejudiced decisions like this, but I just smell a rat with this one. It's too bizarre.
There is just no way that this makes any logical sense, not even from a bigot's viewpoint. There are just too many otherwise credible professionals involved.
It's not covered by FOI. Criminal Records and Sex Offenders registries are classified Highly Protected and POLSEC IIRC. You'd need both clearances, and Need To Know.
Try getting *any* of your own medical records through Medicare.
I managed to get some, but the rest is covered under various privacy laws.
If you have contacts in the Federal Police, they can tell you that such a list exists. For them to reveal any information on it though - even about yourself - would be highly illegal.
This situation has been the case since 1996, and is also described briefly in Katherine Cumming's autobiography. I also blogged it when it happened, around August 2005.
The Australian Human Rights commission is also aware of the issue, and it's mentioned in their report and recommendations on gender-variant people.
I suggest that you contact your nearest endocrinologist, and ask him about the issue.
The fact that I'm on the list did not affect my security clearance - it's become that devalued.
If you think *that* is bizarre... consider this.
Before 1996, there were a number of drugs available which were used to tread Transsexualism (ICD-10 definition).
Now there are none. It is not possible to gain PBS benefits for any drug prescribed for treating transsexuality.
It emphatically *is* possible to get the same drugs* for treating hirsutism, andogenisation etc etc and it is these diagnoses which have to be used.
* (some exceptions - Micronised Progesterone for example).
Zoe,
How much of this is sheer bureaucratic inertia? I'm thinking of all the hoops that new applications of drugs are put through? Who would pay for the clinical trials for applications that benefit only a small group. Normally a pharmaceutical firm might shoulder the cost as a public service and to gain good will. However since the intersexed are a dissaproved of group they might be reluctant to shoulder the cost. And similar processes could stop public funding which might otherwise fund such trials.
I would think that because of your security clearance issue when the Australian gov or military finds out about it. I think they may have to revisit that in light of you being placed on Australians Sex offender list.
So if this is true, I think most other countries would ban you from visiting their country because of you placement in the Sex offender registry.
As Zoe says, I mentioned in my autobiography (Katherine's Diary ... there' a new (2007) updated edition out, folks) the stupidity of the Authority Drug form requiring me to check one of a number of options. I think there were about five in those days ... (late 80s) including androgenisation of non-pregnant female, hirsutism, acne in teenage female etc., but I was required to put my hand up for "suppression of sex drive in deviant male". As I said in my book, before suppressing my sex drive you'd have to find it... I have been thinking about this recently and had decided its time for a letter campaign to the Authorities. I have found this is the most effective way to achieve results. Better than marching in the streets chanting "What do we want?" "Incremental change!" "When do we want it?" "In due course!". Incidentally I have not found my being on a Sex Offenders List (if I am) any impediment to foreign travel.
Kate Cummings
Zoe, Katherine
If this is all true, and I know at least part of it is absolutely true, then a great number of Doctors and Endocrinologists have knowingly committed fraud against the Commonwealth by stating that a patient suffers from something which they know to be untrue in order to get cheaper medication.
We are also tarred with a similar brush because whether we had the implications of this diagnosis explained to us or not (and I did not), we still agreed to an incorrect diagnosis in order to gain cheaper medication.
Katherine, please keep me in the loop with any letter writing campaign, you know my email address.
Of course I informed the security people of the situation in a "change of circumstances" form.
You have to do that kind of thing whenever there's a major change in your life, such as winning Lotto, divorcing, getting married, going bankrupt, buying a house, finding a boyfriend etc.
Transition certainly counts! As does something like this. So they knew as soon as it happened. Because I told them, as I was obliged to do.
That's about all I can say on the matter. Anyone who has a clearance will know the drill, and anyone without has no need to know.
As for restrictions on travel - why? I've not been arrested, nor accused, let alone convicted of anything.
Nicole - do you *really* want to have every single medical practitioner willing to treat TS and IS people in even greater fear of being imprisoned for fraud? A lot won't, for that very reason.
Let's not go there.
Of course not, but this is actually a fact in this case.
Pretending to forget some details doesn't make them disappear.
I would think that you are required to tell customs of the country you landed on any criminal charges or are you on the list of registered sex offenders in your home country. I believe the US ask for the when you enter the US and they do a background check prior to entering the US.
The question asked by US Authorities is:
"Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any reason in any country, even if the arrest did not lead to a conviction, or do you have a criminal record? Please note: the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply to U.S. visa law."
Arrested - no. Convicted - no. Criminal record - no, it's a sex offenders registry. I have no personal criminal record.
When it comes to the Law, exact wording is important.
Oh and Nicky - please follow the guidelines and sign any post.
I am a woman of transsexual background who, because I developed an adverse reaction to Aldactone, was prescribed Androcur: yes, with that caveat on my prescription. Even then, I only filled that script if I also had a script for oestrogen to fill at the same time.
Funnily enough, a couple of years ago I considered doing a Dip. Ed. I sent off my paperwork and was given the appropriate approval. More recently, I volunteered for a community programme and was granted a police clearance.
Could it be that there is someone with sense somewhere who marks our records with a special flag to indicate that our presence on this register is merely due to a deliberate policy change of the previous government.
Ellen.
Ellen
I also have had to have police clearance, back ground checks etc for several of my jobs with no negative consequences of being on the register. I too had a medical reaction to Aldactone and my doctor advised me of all of the consequences of having androcur prescribed. With the exception of a very brief, and actually quite pleasant, visit from the police because of a sexual assault in the area in which I used to live, I have had no come backs. There again, I have no prior convictions nor arrests for anything more serious than "being intoxicated in a public place" (the drunk tank at the East Perth lockup isn't a fun place to be! LOL )
Cathii
Ellen - I think it more likely that it gets diligently filed in a cabinet somewhere, and promptly ignored as useless bureaucratic nonsense.
Having even 10% of the people on it who shouldn't be would devalue it. It might be more than 90% though, as I'm unaware of any systemic effort to get rapists to undergo voluntary chemical castration here. There may have been at one time, but if so, I can't find it.
It could be a "good idea" cooked up 25 years ago, found not to work, and quietly shelved.
Of course it might be making a comeback. But look at the numbers - 38 in the whole of Queensland? You might be looking at an absolute maximum of 250 nationwide with 100% takeup. Now how many trans people - let alone intersexed people - are there here? Thousands.
From the SMH 2004:
"The State Government should consider chemical castration for child sex offenders, the Opposition spokesman on justice, Andrew Humpherson said yesterday.
But his leader, John Brogden immediately distanced himself from the idea, saying: "It is not policy: it is an idea of Humpherson's."
The NSW Minister for Justice, John Hatzistergos, also rejected the idea, saying the Government's advice was that international trials of chemical castration techniques showed they simply did not work."
See this ABC story for why it's likely never account for more than a few dozen nationwide.
My God, that is obscene! I am horrified that this sort of thing could happen. Is there nothing that can be done, no petitions?
Oh, Zoe.....I'm so sorry! =(
I would think you would have to put down that your on a sex offender registry regardless. That's because the US Customs dose extensive background checks with Interpol and they do check to see if your name is on some sex offender registry somewhere. That's why AFP dose share information on people through their law enforcement groups. I would think you are violating US law when you don't post truthful information on US paperwork and that can be grounds for denial of admission in the US.
That's why I am glad that they don't pull this stunt in America. In America, only convicted sex offender felons can be placed on the list and in some states, they either have a lifetime list or a 10 yr listing.
I suspect the AFO may use their discretion and commonsense on this one and not hand out this sort of information to other police forces. The probably share information about actual offenders but not known bogus database entries that are there for bureaucratic reasons. At least I hope they do this.
"I didn't think anyone even took Androcur anymore due to the severe side effects. Spironolactone has been the anti androgen of choice for years."
Actually, Spiro is useless, and Dutasteride, along with Goserelin and Leuprorelin are the anti androgen of choice.
I'm still dubious about this though. Some anti-androgens are given to men for prostate cancer treatment - it's highly unlikely they would end up on a sex offenders register.
They don't.
There are 3 possible diagnoses that authorise this drug:
1014 Advanced carcinoma of the prostate;
1230 Moderate to severe androgenisation in non-pregnant women (acne alone is not a sufficient indication of androgenisation).
1404 To reduce drive in sexual deviations in males.
Only a 1404 diagnosis puts you on the list. But unless you actually have prostate cancer, or are recognised as being biologically female, it's the only possibility.
Nicky - if you genuinely think the US Authorities should be warned about me, then it is your duty as a member of the US Coastguard to inform them. If you don't, you could get into trouble. Please inform me when you do, so I can write a letter to your CO. A letter will be sent anyway, but I think you should have the chance to get yours in first.
I've had a number of trips to the US since being put on this list. As have many others.
I think we may have a little cultural misunderstanding here. Americans seem to take laws and rules more seriously than most other nations. Most people here will try to ignore or circumvent as far as possible a stupid law or regulation. The argument that "It's the law." has less traction here and most other places when defending the indefensible. It's as if many Americans are very reluctant to hand power to people but will very readily hand that power to institutions and rules.
It looks as if the AFP are not taking the sex offender list seriously when it comes up with absurd results.
So, if all people with the first name "Lloyd" were added to this register, no matter how many people recognise its absurdity, would you be concerned that you had been placed on it?
No matter how absurd this situation is, it still gives fuel to the religious reich's fire when attacking minority groups. Mud sticks.
I have a quick question: is there any evidence of this list existing outside of what people's doctors have told them? And is there anyone who could ask their doctor how they know about it? I ask because so far, there seems to be little other evidence of it, and I'm wondering whether in fact it's a rumour that has circulated amongst doctors? Which is problematic, still, but perhaps a little less problematic than such a fucked-up system...
There are child protection lists managed by the states, but you have to be convicted to be added to the list. It would seem a bit odd if there was a federal version that was quite so useless.
Nicole,
No you should be trying to get this changed. It is a slight and that is quite sufficient reason to want this undone. As well it is a potential danger.
Fortunately the database is not publicly searchable. If it was the dangere would be great. The slight appears to not be directly targeted at you but rather the result of bureaucratic carelessness.
It looks as if entries without actual offences againt them are being ignored. Still it only requires one arsehole in the AFP with access to this data for considerable harm to be done.
I agree with you Lloyd,
See we all live under the laws of the land, and in a perfect world where common sense always prevailed, that would be all nice and cosy.
Transsexual people, through years of prejudice, bigotry, torment and many other things have learned not to trust anyone.
Take the privacy act for one, and the fine upstanding police we have to protect us in this city of Sydney. Then look at the harm that came to one transsexual woman because a police officer thought he'd disclose private information to her boyfriend.
Understand why we don't trust anybody?
Oh and Zoe, Your claims of being "Naturally Intersex' Just went down the drain and from Kailana S. Alaniz told me, She dose not believe your intersex anymore. Since I have told Kailana what you wrote on this blog, She now believes that you are not natural intersex but some biological transgender and believes thats since you are taking Androcur.
As for Americans such as myself. I believe firmly in the rule of Law and the law is the law. No matter how wrong or how bad it is. If it's on the books, then you have to follow them.
I do believe that in some form or another that if you are convicted of some crime or placed on some sex offender registry in any country, that could be grounds to bar you from entry into the US.
That's why US DHS dose background checks on Airline passengers prior to any international traveler arriving in the US. I would think that US DHS and AFP would work hand in hand and the AFP would have to notify DHS if some sex offender such as Zoe is leaving Australia for the US. This is all because of 9/11 in America
If you think being placed on the Sex offender registry is bad enough, try the US Governments terrorist watch list and see how many names and how many people are placed on the list.
Oh and I would be the first to fire off a letter to the Royal Australian Navy and show them your blog and maybe even show them this blog post as well.
Annonymous coward (Nick?),
I was there, I was one of the first to be told of what was happening, I have known Zoe for over thirty years, I saw the changes happening, well those that you can see without removing clothing. I know her character very well, I know that she is speaking the truth. You do not know what you are talking about. I call bullshit on everything that you have said.
I will be deleting comments that do not comply with the terms of service:
Anonymous commenters - please add a signature (doesn't have to be your real name) on each post of yours. Anne O'Namus, Norm D. Ploom, Angry from Kent, Demosthenes, or even your real initials, it doesn't matter.
Commenters are expected to be polite to each other, but the same standard doesn't apply to comments regarding me.
In addition, I will delete any comment that could be considered criminally libelous, published with no regard to the truth and motivated by malice.
Zoe,
I need some way to address Nick if he doesn't provide a name. If he does not provide one next time he turns up and spews garbage how should I address him? Dear Ratbag? Dear Flamin' Galah? Something else accurate? Something that he can be regarded as having impicitly agreed to being addressed as.
Perhaps Anno Name Arse?
Perhaps Anno Name Arse?
Lloyd, Sir. That is gold. Absolutely fantastic.
I salute you, and will drink to your perception and wit as soon as I get home this evening.
Cheers,
Nb
Award of 99 Internets to Lloyd for that one.
I was in correspondence with Zoe since well before transition; transition was a complete surprise to her.
As for Americans being willing to evade laws they don't agree with ... some are, some aren't, some are just discreet about it.
Laserlight,
I just see too many defences of obvious injustices on the lines of "It's the law." that are made by Americans. I have to ask why those making this argument seem to not care about an injustice if it comes about through legal mechanisms. They don't take the line "We have to reluctantly enforce the law now while urgently changing it to prevent future prblems like this." They take the line that if you break a law you deserve whatever punishment was prescribed no matter how disproportionate or unjust. They seem blind to outright evil when it is covered by a legal figleaf.
I have to ask why. I can only speculate but with a problem apparently this deep rooted I don't look at peoples vices for the cause. Rather I look at the cost and down side of their virtues.
Hmm, I'm XXY (diagnosed by karyotype no less) and was on spiro for a while. If it's one thing I can't stand it's turf warriors like Nick.
This situation is heinous; no doubt a relic of some ancient moral panic. In Canada, nunchuks and blow-guns(!) were made illegal after Concerned Mothers watched too many kung fu movies and feared a wave of Dastardly Oriental Crime.
Please don't be too harsh on Nick. He's got a problem.
Most people know about him by now, so it's not as if he does any damage.
I wish I could help him, he's quite intelligent, and rational in most areas. This isn't a case of an obnoxious but sane troll.
He may or may not deserve it, but he needs help, Ok? None of us can give it to him, but at least we can not make it worse by isolating or insulting him.
Yes, he is deliberately rude, he uses multiple sockpuppets, and has an absolute obsession about trans people. He's completely irrational there, and will throw in his lot with anyone that is transphobic. This goes beyond the usual obnoxious trolling, it's a sign of a deep emotional problem that I wish he'd get help for. But that's his concern, not mine.
But read his whole blog(s). He's got a keen intellect, he has a sense of duty, in most ways he's an honourable man. Some of his blogging has been quite informative. Just... well.. in this one area...
I read his blog. It sounds like an endless quest to establish what he thinks of as a socially 'legitimate' identity. Just like the HBSers, actually. Everything takes a back seat to this goal.
I agree that mental illness is a probable contributor, but I'm not a psychologist and can't really say. I just remember the USENET days, how newsgroups would always come to be dominated by the cranks because of their sheer relentlessness.
New Caledonia
So that means that Zoe can't claim being naturally intersex anymore since Zoe is taking Androcur. That means me and Kailana S Alaniz are calling into question Zoe's claim of being intersex. I would question Zoe's claim of being intersex and I would call into Suspect Zoe's claims of being intersex as well.
So Zoe, Explain how you could have fathered a child and still claim to be intersex or is that something that you made up to pass yourself off as an intersex person. I doubt your intersex and from what Kailana S Alaniz has told me about you. I highly doubt that you are born intersex anyway.
The fact that somewhere in your blog, you wrote about fathering a child. Where you wrote about trying to confirm whether your intersex and going after medical test after medical test to find out. The you wrote somewhere in your blog where you tried to take medication to induce intersex. I think you don't have any history of being intersex other than being trans.
Oh and let's not forget how the feminist have labeled you as the world's ugliest woman and a MTF-F
Nick,
I was in contact with Zoe when her metabolic changes occurred. I saw the results. I've known her for a long time. All that you allege is rubbish. There are too many witnesses like me who knew what was happening at the time. Give up!
And intersex individuals can be parents. It is just more difficult and artificial assistance was required.
You are being willfully blind for reasons that I am unaware of. Wake up to yourself!
Zoe wants the other commenters here to be polite to you. This is difficult. I don't think you deserve it but I'll try.
Dear Zoe, Nicole and everyone,
I remember being issued the same warning from my endo at the time of prescription for Androcur. Androcur worked fantastically well for me when I needed it, with no side effects.
Following up the register question, I have just had a fairly long and interesting phone conversation with a pharmacist from the PBS.
She advised that Androcur and other brands of Cyproterone Acetate ( http://www.pbs.gov.au/html/healthpro/search/results?term=androcur&scope=PBS+STATIC+WEB+NEWS&form-type=simple )
have indications listed that are provided by drug companies, for conditions that they have done blind clinical trials for. Apparently no-one has deemed Intersex or Trans conditions worthy of such trials, even though far less frequent conditions have been listed and treated with various drugs under the PBS. (I think there is more to it.)
Anyway, she also says that any records kept about drugs that have been prescribed for a person are under very tight security and that only something like a life-or-death emergency, or a court subpoena would be sufficient reason for anyone to access them. But she denies the existence of any register per se, of people who have been prescribed Cyproterone Acetate.
She also says that when a TS person has SRS (yes, I did quiz her on IS and non-SRS TS folk, and the inherent unfairness and assumptions made here, but I digress) and provides a letter from a surgeon - as opposed to a birth certificate - seems they play by their own rules - they amend your Medicare records and create a new file, expunging the previous one. However an archive is still left in place.
Also, Androcur is now "streamlined" authority which apparently means that the prescribing doctor does not have to ring up for an authority anymore, but can use the codes supplied in the PBS listing to treat a patient.
The pharmacist also is aware of the issues and says it's not a new one, (ditto the PBS not managing intersexuality very well) but recommends a campaign to get drug companies to add proper listings for us, thus allowing proper treatment, information and listing throughout the PBS. This could have a very positive flow-on effect of making TS and IS conditions much more visible and recognised, and hence much harder for our enemies to marginalise and deny exist.
So, sounds like we might have a challenge - perhaps this is something we can change.
Oh by the way, I think it was Nicole who mentioned endos etc 'committing fraud' by stating a listed condition just to give a patient cheaper meds? Well they have to prescribe medication for a reason, or else it's illegal for someone to have them - so they have to state a condition in order to prescribe meds at all, not just under the PBS you see. (but in any case why should TS and IS people be excluded from the PBS?) It is a bureaucratic rock and hard place, and not a doctor's fault they are placed in such a position and have a crap system to work around in order to make sure their patents are treated properly. We should be thankful our doctors were willing to be unlike our American friends here and not fear "Breaking The Law" and hence refuse us proper treatment because we are invisible to the system, and instead simply do what they could to look after us.
Regards, Grace
I agree with you Grace,
All I was really alluding to was that because of bureaucracy, we are not the only ones inconvenienced by this, that Doctors and Endocrinologists are very much compromised.
Also, any action we might take should include the medical professionals that treat us. I don't want any of them to be "struck off" or anything, why would I, but people are always going to present to these professionals with transsexualism and Doctors are not going to be able to legally prescribe these medications.
Therefore the Doctors should be involved in this and quite frankly they've probably got more chance of being listened to than us anyway.
Andrea B
I see you are now claiming there are hundreds, possibly thousands of people in the UK who spontaneously change sex.
I have a one word answer to that statement, “BULLSHIT”.
Using the comments section in a newspaper in an article covering the murder of a woman to post trannier than thou nonsense, is out of line.
Also 5 alpha is not a spontaneous sex change. I hope you never meet someone with 5 alpha as they will not be to understanding about your comments.
As a matter of interest are you still on the anti-cholesterol tablets? In some people they can cause no testesterone to be produced. Just add hormones.
You did not have a spontaneous sex change. You had to have surgery.
Your comment in that newspaper.
————————————
I’m Intersexed rather than Transsexual (technically anyway). One of the conditions where your apparent sex at birth changes later in life – rare, but more common than you’d think. Maybe a thousand like that in the UK, certainly quite a few hundred.
A survey in the North East states of the USA showed 40% of TS people were unemployed, 25% in part time employment, and only 35% in fulltime work. But the ones in fulltime work earned less that 8,000 pounds a year on average.
I finish my PhD in computer science in about a year. I have no idea if I’ll ever get paid work again.
I’m not TS, so I can’t get my UK Birth Certificate saying “boy” changed. Yet my UK passport says ‘F’, because of medical reality. Try explaining that to a prospective employer. Even getting a job flipping burgers or delivering pizzas with something like that on your record may well be an impossible dream.
- Zoe Brain, Canberra, Australia, 18/10/2009 15:40
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221080/Woman-dead-burned-flat-sex-worker.html
Andrea B
I forgot, you were also on androcor.
Androcor and estrogen together will feminise the body. There is no need for anything else.
Also you have fathered a child, so was functional, unlike m,ost intersex people.
Zoe, regarding your neuro bovi-methane expulsion syndrome (bullshit).
You were on TS lists for years before transition. You had a penis. You had sex resignment surgery, by scalpel.
Stop using other people’s narratives to justify your own existance.
Transsexualism exists, get over it.
Andrea B
Zoe. I almost forgot.
You have a child. How could someone father a child and get a diagnosis of being a non pregnant female.
Also you did not have a spontaneous sex change. You have hormones, androcor which you constantly complain about and then sex reasignment surgery.
You are transsexual and in denial of your transsexualism. Your constant use of transvestite fantasies in denial of your transsexualism to transsexual people is actually offensive, wether you realise it or not. Also your constant association of various intersex conditions with your fantasies, is actually offensive and degrading to intersex people as well.
Please stop your fantasising. Some people are picking up on it and actually believing it.
Andrea B
Zoe. Just noticed something.
You claimed you started to feminise 3 months before starting to take androcor. So if you were spontaneously feminising, what the hell did you need androcor and estrogen for?
That would contraindicate androcor. So why did you take it, knowing full well you were going on a sex offenders register?
Andrea B,
I saw it happen. I was one of those that Zoe confided in at the start. I heard the details and the mystification. No way she was faking. You have got your facts wrong.
Rare occurrences do happen. There are a couple of dozen recorded spontaneous male to female transition. There are probably at least four different causes. Zoe's is still somewhat of a mystery, probably a rare interaction of causes.
And artifical help was required for conceotion.
Ohh,
And the hundreds of sex changes in the UK that Zoe was referring to wer 5-alpha and 17-beta. If they are not spontaneous sex changes then what are they? There would be less than ten male to female spontaneous changes.
Lloyd- you're committing the fallacy of thinking of intersex and trans conditions as medical issues. The truly wise among us like Andrea B and Kiira Treia recognize that they're actually political identities, from which you can be expelled if you don't toe the line.
Andrea B,
Zoe, You were never a severely andorgenised female or an undervirolised male. I have seen your picture.
You claim you were not able to pass as male anymore. BULLSHIT.
Even after FFS it is still possible for people to pass as male.
Your Anu picture shows some interesting photoshop or FFS changes, most likely photoshop.
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/09/diamond-in-hawaii.html
Here is a link were some genuine intersex people take you to task for your bigotry and attempted assimilation of intersex conditions.
http://letters.mobile.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/07/07/xx_xy/view/index11.html
In plain language you are lying.
There is no reason to be put on androcor to stabilize LH and FSH levels. That is nonsense.
Now you are tying to drag Milton Diamond into it. You are in Australia, he is in Hawaii. Did you fly to him for therapy? You need to see a shrink about your delusions. You should have a phone book, use it.
I am skeptical for a reason. I know a lot about intersex. You are lying through your teeth.
you are a liar and a deluded liar at that.
You went on the Daily Mail website spouting that there is thousands of spontaneous sex changes in the United Kingdom, yet at this link you say there is less than 20 worldwide.
http://svforbes.newsvine.com/_news/2008/07/02/1633062-a-british-man-is-begging-medical-experts-for-help-after-he-started-turning-into-a-woman
On this link you apparently have Benjamin’s syndrome, as well as being a neocon.
http://newsbusters.org/bios/zoe-brain.html
You did not have a spontaneous sex change.
You had cross sex hormones.
You had Androcor to lower your testesterone levels. It is the wrong drug for LH and FSH if you have low testesterone levels.
You claimed you started to feminise 3 months before starting to take androcor. If you were spontaneously feminising, what would you need androcor and estrogen for?
The answer is, you are lying and you were taking it to reduce testesterone levels.
Low testesterone levels would contraindicate androcor. You knew full well you were going on a sex offenders register, if you took androcor. So why did you take it, unless you had normal male testesterone levels?
Your constant use of intersex narratives in typing diarrhrea on your keyboard, on the subject of intersex is bloody annoying. Here you are again.
http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/Profile?oid=1166860
You have had sex reassignment surgery. You had two testicles and a penis. Your testicles were cut of. Your penis was sliced open. You had bits cut out of your penis. Your penis was rearranged a lot and basically turned inside out. Then that inverted penis was put into a hole that a surgeon carved with a scalpel.
You fathered a child. You were a functional male. That is close to impossible for the majority of intersex people.
I see your rantings are everywhere on the internet.
Google actually autofills your name.
You obviously could not have a job, as you must be online making comments about 8 hours a day.
Do you have a job?
If so, do you sleep?
Have you ever actually did anything since transition, apart from type deranged, idiotic, imbecilic nonsense, on the internet?
Andrea B
Here is just some of the links that pop up regarding you.
http://letters.mobile.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/07/07/xx_xy/view/index11.html
http://www.backtype.com/url/aebrain.blogspot.com/comment/00000653003247138988569810e1faae
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/by:zoebrain/index?tab=comments;brevity=full;options=no-change
http://lezgetreal.com/?p=8205
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~Zoe.Brain/is_ts_hr.html
http://dynamic.boingboing.net/cgi-bin/mt/mt-cp.cgi?__mode=feed&_type=actions&blog_id=1&id=119909
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/zoe-brain/0/91/230
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Zoe_Brain
http://twitter.com/paper_brain
http://www.opposingviews.com/users/zoe-brain#
http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AOBUVGNP0B491¨
http://anu.academia.edu/ZoeBrain
http://www.facebook.com/srch.php?nm=zoe+brain#/Zoe.of.Oz?hiq=zoe%2Cbrain&ref=search
http://oiiaustralia.com/zoe-brains-brain-gender-identity-reference-list/
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/user.asp?id=42124
http://forum.keypublishing.com/member.php?u=19728
http://www.123people.co.uk/s/zoe+brain
http://www.transadvocate.com/legal-wtf-moment.htm
http://www.topix.com/member/profile/zoebrain
http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/07/17/culture-crash/
http://www.backtype.com/ZoeB/comment/00010600a444cc0a67292500d5f86a37
You spend to much time surfing the internet looking for places to leaves comments, claiming you are intersex.
Andrea B
You have not had a diagnosis of being a severe androgenised non pregnant woman. Any medic who would write that would probably soon find themselves in a wrap around, tight fitting, tie at the back coat, soon afterwards upon there colleagues finding out.
If as you claim some people are stupid enough to have a blatant liar such as yourself, peer review their work from another speciality, then there careers are finished before even starting.
Who are these so called recognised experts?
Do they actually exist?
Are are they also figments of your very active immagination?
I dread to think what the submissions on the issues of intersex and transsexualism from someone who claims a transvestite fantasy of suddenly turning into a woman, would be like.
I have had enough of fantasists such as yourself constantly claiming more equal than others, more trans than trans, trying to legitamise yourself with conditions you do not have and constantly trying to legitamise nonsense in the area of transsexualism.
Transsexualism is legitamat. It does not need various conditions to legitamise it.
Andrea B
The best liars are the most believeable. Check out con artists, ponzy schemes and sales representatives.
The most self deluded don’t even know they are lying.
In this case, it is pure verbal diarrhrea, by someone who has not realised that being polite to everyone will still not make a lie stick, by telling it politely over and over again. It is a good method to make a lie stick though and will give Zoe credit for that.
If Zoe spent her time improving herself, she would be better of. All Zoe is doing is creating a downward, ever decreasing spiral of delusion and lies. The lies feed of the delusion. The delusion feeds of the lies. By this self enforcement it constantly compounds itself, into a reality which is completely fictional, like some sort of second life character.
Zoe spins a good tale, but that is all it is, a story. She is a good writer, which is one of the many facets that makes her story more believeable.
I have known a few intersex people over the years. I know a bit more about intersex issues than most. I can assure you, Zoe is fabricating this one. she has left to much of a trail all over the internet.
Zoe can not get a gender recognition certificate in the UK because firstly she is still married and secondly becuase she would have to have a UK registered approved medic to sign of on her gender recognition certificate.
The cost of getting a UK medic for someone in Australia, is probably the real reason she can not get her birth certificate changed. Christine Burns gave that one away a few years ago with her deranged statement that Australian people should fly a medic out to Austrailia to sign the papers. The cost of that was well beyond most transsexual people and Burns knew that.
Zoe has been around TS lists for years now. Long before transition or changes. Unfortunately for Zoe I have been on some of those lists.
She has learn’t a lot over the years, but most importantly still has to learn to just accept her transsexualism as legitamate and move on.
Her problem is the same as most others with false intersex claims. They have bought into the sexualisation and fetishisation of transsexualism, that is forced upon us by the media, LGBT, religeous people, law makers and clincians.
Those who create the situation whereby fetishisation and sexualisation of transsexual people occurs, are actually dangerous. Transsexualism starts in childhood, most likely in the womb. Anyone sexualising anyone at that age, is a dangerous pervert and should be stopped in there tracks with all available force. Society will be a lot better of when those who sexualise and fetishise transsexualism are securly behind bars.
Buying into that can lead a person down a dangerous fundamentalist road.
Zoe had sex reasignment surgery a couple of years ago. There was no spontaneous sex change. She had a penis. A surgeon reshaped it into a vagina and cut of the testicles.
It is plain and simple.
You have been on the lists for years now as well. You have seen people come and go. Do some digging on your own. Sit back and think about it.
What worries me most about Zoe, is the not only the fact she is probably screwing her own head up to the point where something will have to give, but also the people who have bought into her fiction and will have there academic standing affected by it.
Andrea B,
Pay attention! Zoe has plenty of witnesses. I was there. I was one of them. There are other commenters on this blog who knew her from before her changes. I know how much of a surprise it was to her. I've known her very well for over thirty years. I know her well enough to know that she is telling the truth.
Now you stop deceiving yourself, because a very unusual case does not fit in your pigeonholes. Your scepticism was understandable but your continued refusal to look at the facts is just wrong. Have the courage to admit that you were wrong and apologize.
Lloyd, haven't you been paying attention? Zoe leaves comments on internet sites.
That automatically precludes her from having any unusual medical condition.
Andrea B,
Then ask Zoe how could she have a father and still claim intersex. How could she still be married in the UK and still be called a Male.
Because It's practically impossible for an intersex person to father a child.
The fact is Zoe is in deep denial of her transsexuality. She is messed up in the head and a very good pathological liar. Just Google Zoe's name and you would be surprise to see what she says. The fact is Zoe is not and intersex and she's stealing real intersex people of their history. She's nothing but a pathological liar and you all are being duped by a professional liar.
That's why Loyd you don't want to believe the truth and the truth is out their, if you go and look for it.
Andrea B,
The facts are their, if you want to believe Zoe's lies and go ahead.
While your at it Google Zoe's name and see what you come up because Zoe leaves a huge evidence trail to follow and if you taken the time to do the research, you will see that Zoe is a transsexual in deep denial and is not an intersex person.
It seems very clear that Zoe is in deep denial of her transsexuality and is trying to cover it up with claiming that she's intersex when it's proven that Intersex people can't father a child.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Zoe+Brain&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS317US318&ie=UTF-8
Andrea,
I knew about some of Zoe's medical oddities before her changes. Things fall into place now that seemed odd at the time.
Some intersexed people can be parents, it's just difficult. Medical help was required in Zoe's case. I know some of the details but won't discuss them with you.
I know her, you don't. I heard her worry and bewilderment when the changes started, when she did not know whether these changes could kill her. What you suggest is so completely out of character for her that it is ridiculous.
You know too many things that aren't so. You should start learning things that are so.
Andrea,
I've known Zoe for a long time. We've been in some of the same classes at uni. We have similar hobbies and interests. We've been frequent vistors at each others houses. We've had innumerable conversations about all sorts of things.
Zoe has never been a Munchausen. She has no need. Plenty of other outlets for any fantasizing. Alot of the things that you suggested that she do she already does. To carry out the sort of deception that you suggest she would have to tell so many lies that she would inevitably trip up. Her actions are consistent. What you are claiming is conspiracy theory stuff, no one could keep it up face to face.
She does have a hypertrophied sense of responsibility and always has had this. She feels that she has had it much better than most transssexuals and intersexed and that someone has to dispell the ignorance that leads to prejudice and persecution. She always feels she has to help and sometimes tries too hard.
You are wrong on so many things. I know her to a degree that someone like you who only has seen her internet posts cannot. She is not lying.
Zoe has been around TS lists for years now. Long before transition or changes.
Not as such. I didn't even know support sites existed until May 2005. First posting would be around mid-may to early june, when things were underway.
I can't blame Andea's scepticism overmuch. I remember all too clearly my own conclusion when presented with the situation - that I had to be delusional.
If it took me so much convincing to believe the evidence of my senses, and the conformation by others "at the scene", why should she believe the comments, blog entries, photos, publications (dead tree and online) etc about me? All of them could be faked.
Perhaps if she wrote to Milton Diamond to confirm my visit to him independently, she might believe that. Or might not, perhaps I've paid someone to intercept communications to him and fake replies. I couldn't prove that I hadn't.
Look, it doesn't matter. Really. Facts are, regardless of what I say or what she thinks. I know it might be frustrating for those who were eye-witnesses that someone doesn't credit the facts, but it's no biggie. I ask them to consider what they'd believe if they hadn't actually seen it happen.
And remember this.
Andrea B,
So Lloyd, your going to believe what a pathological liar is going to tell you. I think your as delusional as Zoe is. Zoe is not an intersex person and Zoe is in very much deep denial of the fact that she is a transsexual. She fathered a child and most intersex I know of can't not father a child. So that makes Zoe a Transsexual and Zoe is a transsexual in denial about it. Zoe will lie about being intersex so she can be accepted as an intersex when in reality, Zoe is nothing more than a transsexual.
Then how come Zoe doesn't show proof that she is intersex. How come Zoe doesn't show you the child she fathered or the marriage certificate from the UK. That's because Zoe is a very deluded and very delusional person. She can't admit she's a transsexual and she's trying to hide behind the intersex name.
Zoe,
You realize who comes to mind when I think of that strip, not that I'm not an offender too.
Andrea,
How come Zoe doesn't show me the child that she fathered? How about almost every time I vist her house. ROFL! Marriage certificate from the UK? I was present at her wedding in Sydney. You are becoming a joke. I can understand why you were sceptical but you won't listen to peple who were there. Give up! I know what I've seen.
Okay Andrea, I'll bite:
Then ask Zoe how could she have a father and still claim intersex.
How come Zoe doesn't show you the child she fathered or the marriage certificate from the UK.
You can't even decide what Zoe is supposedly lying about?! I mean, I'm assuming you meant how she could have been a father, not simply have a father. Unless you believe that to be intersex, one must be torn from the thigh of Gaia?
She fathered a child and most intersex I know of can't not father a child.
I don't not know why you can't not understand the difference between "most" and "all." See, if "most" intersexed can't father a child, then that means at least a "few" can. See. S'just how it works. See.
While your at it Google Zoe's name and see what you come up because Zoe leaves a huge evidence trail to follow and if you taken the time to do the research, you will see that Zoe is a transsexual in deep denial and is not an intersex person.
You've obviously taken the time yourself, so why not enlighten us with a few specifics? As in, not simply a broad google search that doesn't seem to actually turn up this "evidence" of... something or other.
Nicky, please don't sign as Andrea.
Your writing style is unmistakable, because no-one can mistake your style of writing. You write with an unmistakable style, and the style you write with is unmistakable, because it can't be mistaken.
You realize who comes to mind when I think of that strip
I have no idea! :) Apart from that strange woman in the mirror, that is.
Yes, it's because of that that I mentioned it.
Now that Nicky's muddied the water as a sockpuppet, the ratio of signal to noise approaches zero too.
We need to unite against our common enemy: The Judean People's Front.
I'm calling BS on this, unless you can provide a link to a website of the Australian Federal Government regarding this (a search of the Internet regarding this subject turns up no government link).
SDA - go talk to an endocrinologist who prescribes the stuff.
The diagnosis is :
1404 To reduce drive in sexual deviations in males.
See:
http://www.pbs.gov.au/html/consumer/product/restrictions?publication=GE&code=8019C&brand=Cyprohexal
He'll tell you that all "deviant males" are put on the register. This info is not on the web, it's an internal Dept of Health regulation.
Note "authority required" - the health authorities must be informed, and an authorisation number obtained, before the medication can be prescribed.
Zoe,
Is this something that the police have access to or is it just an internal Department of Health fiction? Even if the police do have access to it is this unrestricted or do they have to give strong reasons for looking at such information?
It would be at least PROTECTED, probably HIGHLY PROTECTED, and POLSEC.
Not that that means much to some police... but they're not usually cleared to that level.
That's informed speculation. I don't just have military clearances, but the nitty-gritty details can't be talked about.
Hi Zoe, Et. Al
This sex offenders criteria is a barbaric way of regulating Cyproterone Acetate, (CP) if that is its intention.
It is regulated in New Zealand, but that is done by strictly controling who is able to prescribe it.
Only medical specialists such as endocrinologists or urologists are permitted to prescribe CP.
This means that it is the doctor who requires registration rather than the patient.
I doubt this is a less effective way of controlling the use of a very expensive drug.
Kiaora :-)
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